Jason
From: "Schwartz, Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Exchange Discussions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Exchange Discussions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:33:11 -0500
Gift - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation Award - To grant as merited or due Compensation - Something, such as money, given or received as payment or reparation, as for a service or loss.
I don't see MVP status as being a gift. Seems to me that it would be an award for people that spend their own time (cost of time is greater than hard cash) to help others understand technology. In many cases I have seen most of the MVP's give their time and efforts to helping people understand what they are already running (Exchange) in Exchange related newsgroups and lists.
-----Original Message----- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 1:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics
How am I changing position? I have always stated that the problem with MVP is that it is a gift. If you paid for it and it were not a gift, then it is something that you PAID for, just like MCSE or any other certification. Explain how this is a change in my point of view?
> You've never proven that it is a breach of ethics, much less
> egregious. And your admission of even a slight change of your point
> of view shows just how fatuous your argument is.
>
> Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
> Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
> Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:41 AM
> To: Exchange Discussions
> Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics
>
> Well, you're missing the big picture and the whole point, but yes, if
> you paid Microsoft, even one dollar, then it would not be such an
> egregious breach of ethics.
>
> > So how fundamentally different is paying Microsoft to be a Partner
> > than being an MVP? It's true that I don't pay actual money to be an
> > MVP, but I do work for it. Don't you have to sign lots of agreement
> > papers to be a Partner? Do you give all your customers copies of
> > those papers so they can assess the level of conflict of interest?
> > So if I send Microsoft a dollar for my MVP status, the conflict of
> > interest
> ends?
> >
> > You still haven't proven your assertion that my accepting the small
> > gratuity and title associated with MVP constitutes a conflict of
> > interest. Your only proof so far is along the lines of, "It's
> > obvious," or "It is because I say it is."
> > Perhaps it's because you can't prove it?
> >
> > Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
> > Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
> > Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
> > Deckler
> > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 8:51 AM
> > To: Exchange Discussions
> > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics
> >
> > First, you have no credibility on the point. You find the phrase "I
> > finish them (fights)" offensive but not someone being called a
> > "liar", "stupid", "idiot", "wife beater". You simply have zaro
credibility.
> >
> > Second, as for your other two points, our customers and potential
> > customers are made well aware of any and all potential conflicts of
> > interest. We practice full disclosure. In addition, meeting with a
> > vendor to talk about their new products is in no way even CLOSE to
> > accepting a title or gift from said vendor. But, there is no point
> > to even debating this with you because you are never going to see it
> > because
> you are going to deny the obvious.
> > Yes, I have to deal with vendors just like everyone else in this
industry.
> > It is a fact of life. But, I don't have to like it and no,
> > generally, I almost NEVER meet with vendors and when I do, it is for
> > specific purposes, I get in, get the information and get out.
> >
> > Finally, you have obviously shown your bias by claiming that I claim
> > to be the "all ethical" sort. And to my knowledge, I have no "ethics
> > test" that I have created. This is a blatant mis-characterization
> > and
> exposes your bias.
> > I am not, nor ever will be "all ethical" and "holier than thou". I
> > have
> > *different* ethics apparently than many on this board, but I have
> > never claimed to be perfect or that my ethics are the end all, be all.
> > Yes, I have paid to attend conventions, I have paid to be a
> > Microsoft "partner". In some strict ethical vaccuum those may be
> > considered unethical, but this is the real world. And besides that,
> > there is a clear, bright line between paying a vendor to attend a
> > convention and accepting a pure gift from a vendor. That bright line
> > is what I have been talking about, but you are never going to see it
> > because you will never admit to the obvious and just want to pick a
fight.
> >
> > And yes, for all of you out there, I am nearly certain that, in my
> > youth, I accepted direct gifts from vendors. I cannot recall any
> > particular occassion, but I'm willing to bet that it probably occurred.
> And guess what?
> > I stopped that long, long, long ago because IT IS WRONG.
> >
> > So, to sum it up, you have no credibility that you have been
> > "offended" in any way because there have been lots more offensive
> > stuff said that you have not said boo about. And, you are in
> > self-denial about the DISTINCT difference between accepting a pure
> > gift from a vendor and PAYING that vendor to attend a convention, etc.
> > Here's a hint. One costs you money, the other doesn't.
> >
> > > I am not "quibbling" with what you said, I'm instead taking
> > > offense at what you said. You see, you can't claim to be the "all
ethical"
> > > sort you want, if you can't even pass the ethics test of your own
> making.
> > > I didn't post any of those points on your website, someone from
> > > YOUR company did, and you are the one claiming to hold them near and
dear.
> > >
> > > How interesting that you choose to respond ONLY to one point, and
> > > then make irrelevant statements about people calling you names.
> > >
> > > Since I didn't call you names sir, perhaps you should go back and
> > > re-read the whole message. It's not that I consider you a liar,
> > > or that you are stupid. I now consider you incapable of having
> > > any type of intelligent discussion based on the fact that you
> > > choose to ignore 2/3rds of what was posted, or should I just
> > > assume that you chose not to discuss those points because you
> > > couldn't keep your "I have
> my Ethics"
> > > argument and all this would be moot?
> > >
> > > Speaking of MOOT, can anyone tell me what top 10 classic rock
> > > single contains the word "MOOT"?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob Sadler
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:50 AM
> > > To: Exchange Discussions
> > > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics
> > >
> > >
> > > So you are going to quibble with things that "I" said? You people
> > > are so whacked out that it is utterly incomprehensible. So where
> > > were you when I was called a "liar" or a "wife beater" or "stupid"
> > > or
> "idiot"
> > > or that I "starve children". All of that is OK in your whacky
> > > bizarro world, but explaining to someone that if you start a fight
> > > (in email for Christ's
> > > sake) that I will finish that fight. Oh that is TERRIBLE! How
> > > could you SAY such a thing. Never mind the "liar", "stupid", "idiot"
> > > stuff, THAT, sir, is uncalled for.
> > >
> > > Bob, you amaze me.
> > >
> > > > You know, I'm just as happy to NOT read this dribble, but when
> > > > someone
> > >
> > > > points out so wonderfully how ethical they are, and we can all
> > > > go to=20 www.infonition.com/ethics.shtml to prove it, then
> > > > someone like me just
> > >
> > > > might go there and read, and low and behold what is it we find?
> > > >=20
> > > > Well, this character Greg, wants us all to believe his "ethics"
> > > >are=20 without question. So, let's take a look at his ethics
> > > >page and see=20 what he's supposed to be doing.
> > > >=20
> > > > First, Greg's point of vendor conflict is answered here:
> > > >=20
> > > > To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending =
> > > products=3D20
> > > >=20
> > > > One must ask then Greg, have you ever been to a seminar,
> > > >conference,=20 or LUNCH where the vendor presenting paid for the
> > > >meal, the snacks,=20 the coffee?
> > > >=20
> > > > Second, Greg's list of ethics claim:
> > > >=20
> > > > To disclose any and all influences that may affect our=20
> > > >recommendations=3D20 =20 Greg, does this mean that if I were to
> > > >speak to you over the phone,=20 you would tell me just how many
> > > >times your Cisco, Microsoft, Bay=20 Networks, etc., Rep. has called?
> > > >Or are you saying that you never=20 meet with the vendors to
> > > >discuss how their products can benefit your=20 customers? Do
> > > >you ever read trade magazines that discuss the use of=20 one
> > > >vendors products over another? Will you then tell me all the=20
> > > >magazines you read, what date, publication, page number, etc?
> > > >=20
> > > > Third, Greg's list goes on to say:
> > > >=20
> > > > To be fair and accurate when resolving disputes, problems or
> > > >issues=20 [and] To conduct ourselves in a professional manner at
> > > >all times=3D20 =20 One must ask then Greg, exactly how does your
> > > >statement of: "Wrong.=20 You brought it up by throwing stones my
> > > >way. I don't pick fights, I=20 finish them." work into these
> > > >statements?
> > > >=20
> > > > This is just what I don't need in a vendor. Someone who
> > > >believes he's
> > >
> > > > always right, and if he is going to have a fight with his
> > > >customers,=20 HE'S going to finish it. I can see now why people
> > > >flock to your=20 organization Greg.
> > > >=20
> > > > The point is, don't say something matters a great deal to you,
> > > >and=20 then give this list plenty of examples showing that
> > > >apparently it=20 doesn't. You want to wave a flag around and say
> > > >"I have ethics" and=20 yet not live by those same ethics, then
> > > >be prepared to be inundated=20 with the onslaught.
> > > >=20
> > > > I would trust Ed, Tom, Tony, and even Don, further then I would
> > > >trust=20 someone yelling about how ethical they are and at the
> > > >same time say=20 they'll finish any fight.
> > > >=20
> > > > It's time to throttle back now greg, and realize this. You are
> > > >a=20 Sales Manager for a company that apparently you are supposed
> > > >to be=20 drumming up business for. Just how much business do you
> > > >think you=20 have generated on this list after acting in the
> > > >manner you
> did?
> > > >=20
> > > > Bob Sadler
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm
> > > Web Interface:
> > > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange&tex
> > > t_
> > > mo
> > > de=3D=
> > > &
> > > lang=3Denglish
> > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm
> > Web Interface:
> > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mo
> > de
> > =&lang
> > =english
> > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm
> Web Interface:
> http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode
> =&lang
> =english
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm
Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english
To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
_________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
