On Sat 2003-03-15 at 18:28:39 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:43:12 +0100 Benjamin Pflugmann > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [a bit reordered] > > Well, I just installed it from current cooker (ohphone-1.3.5-1mdk) and > > could start it without problem. Did not include much testing, because > > I did not care to read the manual, but I can make it searching for > > something it calls "gatekeeper". :-) > > OK... THANK YOU!
You are welcome.
> *that's* what I want to hear... but I still believe the packagers
> should at least *start* whatever they are building -- there is no
> other way to ensure the build is even usable.
I am quite positive that they did test it and it just broke due to
some later updates to other packages - something which could only be
noticed if you start almost every application every time you update
another package. That was why I cited the changelog. A lot of time has
passed since the previous update. Whatever.
> > On Fri 2003-03-14 at 21:48:20 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > On Friday 14 March 2003 08:35 pm, Pierre Fortin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Does Mdk even try just *starting* the applications included in a
> > > > release?
> >
> > I am not sure they should. There are a lot of testers out there. And
> > if none of them bothered to try the app *and* report problems, I would
> > consider it reasonable to remove that app, because apparently nobody
> > cares enough about it.
I am aware that this statement was a bit drastic. But I figured if I
bother to actually test it for you, I may let go of some opinion... ;-)
Or in other words: I was willing to test, but a bit nerved by your
rant. So you got a opposing rant. Not a smart thing to do, I know.
> That's plain wrong thinking... if Mdk wants to limit their sales to just
> those who test/run Cooker, I might agree... BUT... they want to sell as
> much as they can,
You are right. That was my point: They want to sell as much as they
can. And if there is a package that *apparently* nobody cares about,
why wasting time which could be spent better to satisfy the majority
of buyers. I don't claim they do this. I only say it wouldn't be
unreasonable, IMNSHO.
And we are not talking about Cookers here. Nobody testing any of
beta1, beta2, beta3, RC1 and RC2 cared to file a bug report. And that
includes a lot of people.
Or in other words: do you really want them to include any app out
there, just because there could be some interest for it? Usually apps
are either chosen because they make general sense (e.g. zeroconf),
some volunteer contributes it, or enough people ask for it that
somebody else cares to packages it.
Note that I am not actually suggesting to drop ohphone for real. I am
only presenting a different viewpoint, i.e. that it is not to be taken
for granted that it will be supported forever if no one gives feedback.
> and they really have no way of telling how people will use the
> distro.
Oh. They have. User feedback. Bug reports (*hint* :).
> If there are some applications that won't even *start*, what does
> that say for Mdk QA???
Well, it does start. I did not say anywhere that they don't do tests
before final release.
> After all, the distro is named "Mandrake Linux", not "Linux By A
> Rag-tag Bunch of Cooker/Wannabe Testers Who Didn't Have the Time or
> Inclination to Test All the Applications: Good Luck!"...
I doubt that the Mandrake distro would still be the same without those
people you like calling names. Read cooker for some week and you will
realize how much is done and influenced by volunteers. (That does mean
to imply that Mandrake people don't do a great job. They certainly do!
It is about teamwork.)
Another point is that of work sharing. Since everybody (well, almost ;)
is able to do testing, but there are certain things only people at
Mandrake can do reasonably, it only makes sense that developers
concentrate on "their" tasks and volunteers do (most of) the testing.
[...]
> > I also searched the the bug database. Not a single entry for ohphone.
> > Maybe there was a report directly on the cooker mailing list.
>
> For 9.0, I reported it, was even blamed for building it wrong, pointed out
> I just installed it, got the impression it would be fixed, not!
>
> If Mdk don't fix broken apps in a distro, they won't last IMO.
That statement is so general, it is kind of rediculous. Of course they
fix broken apps. It is just impossible to fix every bug in every
application. Resource limit. (And some would say, it is impossible to
make a app without bugs - it's only a question of how visible they
are.)
> > Anyhow, regarding the the late update, I would say: blame yourself.
> > (I do not mean anyone particular with yourself here.)
>
> The first part sounds like flame-bait; but the 2nd... unable to grok.
Take it as a misscarried try to encourage to participiate in Mandrake
Linux by making sure the parts you care about are working:
Of couse one can sit back and wait until the distro ships. But since
Mandrake has an (quite) open development process everyone has the
freedem and chance to contribute. Of course, it would be wrong to
expect everyone contributing. However I can suggest it.
It was a way of saying "Is the glass half full, or half empty?" And
then, "blame yourself", if you think it's half empty.
[...]
> I have several books on software quality I'd be glad to donate to Mdk, if
> I thought they'd read them...
It was this unnecessarily harsh and unfair tone that provoked my
controverial answer to begin with. ;-)
Bye,
Benjamin.
PS: Steffen, the ISDN example doesn't make sense. There are quite some
people from Germany using Cooker. Example at hand: I am from
Germany, and I am using ISDN via modem (yes, I have one of those).
And I am running Cooker on several machines...
PPS: That's my last post in this matter except if something
interesting for all might result from it.
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