--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Lack of fucking will make you spacey. Good fucking makes > you very centered and present. Also an occasional chicken > sandwich before or after fucking will make you grounded too.
Not during? :-) Bhairitu's and Vaj's and Pete's points are well taken. "Spaciness" or feeling "spaced out" is not being spiritual; it's the opposite of being spiritual. > --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] TMers: Do You "Space Out"? > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 7:51 PM > > It may well be that many "great Indian saints" who > > were said to go into > > "spontaneous samadhi" were just "spacing > > out." We know how Indians are > > and they'll make such overblown observations. Brigante > > said a while > > back that on his TTC that Maharishi said "Indians were > > like Americans on > > drugs." I think, unless they have been exposed and > > have had to adapt to > > western culture (such as Indians who attend universities > > her to get > > advanced degrees) they often have the emotional maturity of > > an 11 year > > old. But that also suggests a vata disposition. > > > > Meditation of any kind, as ayurveda states, usually > > increases the ether > > element. It is to help you rise about the muddy earth > > element. But > > what if you are already a "space case." I would > > lay the spaciness more > > to bad vegetarian diet or having such a diet if it is > > inappropriate for > > your constitution. Remember that many Indian yogis use > > ashwaganda and > > brahmi in conjunction with their practice which helps tone > > the nervous > > system and ground out. Yogis know the importance of > > grounding out > > whereas too many western meditators just want to fly away > > like a leaf. > > How many TM'ers you know need "lots of rest" > > indeed up to 10 to 12 hours > > of sleep? Whereas I see progress if I only need 4 to 6 > > hours of sleep. > > I also wonder if westerners because of their dispositions > > accomplish > > just as much in a fraction of the time meditating that an > > Indian does? > > > > BTW, of that list I'm sure you'll find a lot of > > aging boomers who have > > never meditated relating to those symptoms. Maybe it's > > the fluoride in > > the water? They're known as "senior moments" > > and sometimes by balancing > > the doshas they start to go away. > > > > Vaj wrote: > > > Great article from John Knapp. > > > > > > Transcendental Meditators: Do You "Space > > Out"? > > > Posted by John M. Knapp, LMSW at 9/25/2008 03:46:00 PM > > > Transcendental Meditation & Dissociation > > > > > > In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked > > about "dissociation." > > > Many people don't know what it is. Or if they > > experience it. > > > > > > In TM, we called it "spacing out," > > "blissing out," being a "space > > > cadet," or many other dismissive names. > > > > > > But what did we mean? And what's the big problem > > with it? A lot of > > > people enjoy "blissing out." > > > > > > Basically, dissociation is any gap in the major > > identity or cognitive > > > functions: awareness, memory, conscious thought, > > certain language > > > abilities, and of course identity itself. > > > > > > We all dissociate sometimes. We daydream, get lost in > > thought, stare > > > off into space, forget for a moment where we are, or > > lose track of our > > > surroundings when deeply involved with a book. > > > > > > But, in extreme cases, our main personality disappears > > during the gap > > > â" and another alter may take over. This is > > full-blown Dissociative > > > Identity Disorder, what used to be called Multiple > > Personality > > > Disorder. This is rare. > > > > > > The point is dissociation exists on a spectrum, from > > mild and > > > pleasurable to severely disabling. > > > > > > Dissociation is only a problem when it causes pain or > > difficulty > > > functioning in daily life. > > > > > > Some cultic studies scholars believe cultic > > organizations teach trance > > > states, a form of dissociation, because they increase > > suggestibility â" > > > with obvious benefits to groups that control and > > indoctrinate members. > > > (Not all scholars agree with the link between trance > > and > > > suggestibility. This article offers evidence against > > the > > > suggestibility hypothesis.) > > > > > > Purposefully teaching dissociation to increase > > suggestibility seems > > > likely to me. Every cultic group I've worked with > > promoted > > > dissociation through trance, meditation, Ericksonian > > or classic > > > hypnosis, chanting, speaking in tongues, group > > criticism sessions, > > > singing hymns for hours, observing lengthy religious > > rituals, > > > protracted group workshops, lengthy baffling group > > instruction, > > > interminable incomprehensible videos, yoga, or other > > methods. > > > > > > This doesn't mean dissociative techniques > > can't be pleasurable â" or > > > beneficial. But like so many good things in life, they > > may be > > > perverted by leaders with dishonorable intentions. And > > like salt, a > > > little adds flavor and is necessary for life. But a > > lot can kill you. > > > > > > Dissociation is one of our primary defense mechanisms. > > Most readers > > > have heard of the "fight or flight > > response": The body pumps out > > > adrenaline when presented with danger. To this > > scholars add "freeze": > > > Responding to a frightening stimulus with a > > "deer-in-the-headlights" > > > response, in the hope the danger will go away by > > itself. > > > > > > I'd add to the physical fight-flight-or-freeze > > triad two cognitive > > > defenses: "appease" and "avoid." > > Most mammals exhibit an appease > > > response: Think of a low-status dog presenting his > > belly to a > > > threatening dominant pack leader. We humans may bow > > and scrape before > > > a threatening boss, for instance. > > > > > > "Avoiding" takes many forms: simply staying > > away from hostile places > > > and people, to denial, to mentally checking out â" or > > dissociating â" > > > when all other defense methods fail. Our minds protect > > us from > > > overwhelming stress. > > > > > > The classic example is the child who is raped. At the > > time, the child > > > may lose consciousness or enter into a fantasy world. > > Later as an > > > adult, the raped adult-child may dissociate â" or > > even develop alters â" > > > to protect the mind against the extreme stress of the > > painful memory > > > or self loathing. People with post-traumatic stress > > disorder tend to > > > dissociate. > > > > > > It's easy to understand how harsh criticism fits > > into this model. > > > Being denounced in front of a group is excruciating. > > It makes sense > > > the mind checks out. > > > > > > But what about chanting or meditating? > > > > > > It's possible trance is a response to the boredom > > of repeating a > > > mantra or maintaining a blank mind. Or it may be > > trance is just an > > > alternative way of invoking a natural response â" a > > kind of "back > > > door," just as we can hike our adrenaline by > > visualizing a dangerous > > > situation when none is present. > > > > > > Eastern meditation cults, or any group practicing > > extensive chanting > > > or meditation, seem to cause unusually high levels of > > dissociation for > > > some people in my experience. (I find fewer problem > > reports from > > > mindfulness meditation practitioners â" although > > I've worked with > > > followers of Goenka who report dissociation.) > > > > > > Mantra-based and similar meditations themselves are > > forms of learned, > > > voluntary, and controlled dissociation. > > > > > > For most people 20 or 30 minute meditations are not > > only not > > > dangerous, they appear to be beneficial â" and > > enjoyable. Meditation is > > > one of Nature's miracles, I believe. > > > > > > But some people report meditation practice can lead to > > involuntary, > > > uncontrolled "spacing out" in daily life. > > Some groups have members > > > meditating for 4 or 8 hours a day. (TM is one of > > these.) It appears > > > the mind overlearns meditative states, and they may > > occur > > > spontaneously and without conscious control in daily > > life. For some of > > > my clients, this causes difficulty leading a normal > > family or > > > professional life. > > > > > > A side point: Trance and meditation appear to become > > addictive for > > > some people. (You may be interested in this article on > > trance addiction.) > > > > > > Whatever mechanism allows meditation to induce > > dissociation, for a > > > significant minority of meditate excessively, it > > becomes involuntary > > > and dysfunctional. > > > > > > Many long-term meditating clients initially deny > > dissociating in daily > > > life. > > > > > > But after reviewing the symptoms, some tell me > > they've dissociated for > > > years. > > > > > > Are you dissociating? Is it a challenge in your life? > > > > > > Below is a list of possible symptoms. Nobody > > experiences all of them. > > > Even experiencing a few â" if they interfere with > > your life â" is a > > > matter for concern. > > > > > > I've also linked to an online test that may > > indicate if you are > > > experiencing dissociation. Please feel free to report > > your own > > > experiences of dissociating in the comments below â" > > maintaining your > > > anonymity if you choose. > > > > > > > > > Depersonalization: Symptoms of Losing Identity (Gaps) > > > > > > You sometimes stare off into space, not thinking and > > unaware of > > > passing time > > > You sometimes feel like a "witness" to what > > is happening to your body > > > When driving, you sometimes realize you don't > > remember all or part of > > > the trip > > > Listening to someone talk, you sometimes realize you > > did not hear what > > > was just said > > > You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are > > alone > > > You sometimes find yourself somewhere, with no idea > > how you got there > > > You have no memory of some important life events, for > > example wedding, > > > graduation > > > You sometimes feel your body does not belong to you > > > You sometimes remember a past event so vividly you > > feel you are > > > reliving it > > > You sometimes aren't sure whether things you > > remember really did > > > happen or a dream > > > Sometimes you can't remember if you did something > > or just thought > > > about doing it > > > You sometimes find a familiar place strange and > > unfamiliar > > > Watching TV or reading, you sometimes become so > > absorbed you're > > > unaware of the room around you > > > You sometimes get so involved in a fantasy or daydream > > it feels as if > > > it is really happening (may be understood as a > > "vision") > > > You act so differently from situation to situation you > > like two > > > different people > > > You find yourself dressed in clothes you don't > > remember putting on > > > You sometimes find new things among your belongings > > you do not > > > remember buying > > > Sometimes people approach you whom you don't know. > > They may call you > > > by another name or insist you've met them before > > > You notice or are told you sometimes do not recognize > > friends or > > > family members > > > You sometimes are accused of lying when you do not > > think you are > > > You sometimes look in a mirror and do not recognize > > yourself > > > You sometimes find you are able to do things with > > amazing ease and > > > spontaneity that usually are difficult for you > > (sports, work, social > > > situations, etc.) > > > You sometimes find evidence you've done something > > you don't remember > > > doing > > > You sometimes find writings, drawings, or notes you > > have done but > > > don't remember doing > > > You sometimes hear voices that tell you what to do or > > comment on what > > > you're doing > > > > > > > > > Derealization: Symptoms of Losing Connection to > > Reality > > > > > > You sometimes feel like you are falling into a void > > > You sometimes feel like you are "outside your > > body" â" alongside, above > > > or behind > > > You sometimes feel like you are floating > > > You sometimes feel kuje you and your surroundings do > > not seem real > > > You sometimes see stationary objects appear to move > > > Sometimes people and objects appear far away or > > unclear > > > You sometimes see surroundings through a diffused > > light, fog or mist > > > (or "fiery" light) > > > Sometimes your whole body enveloped in light > > > You sometimes feel your body is expanded â" feels > > huge/larger than normal > > > You sometimes feel your body has shrunk to minute > > proportions/smaller > > > than normal > > > You sometimes feel your body is being pressed to the > > ground > > > You sometimes are unusually sensitive to light and > > sound > > > You sometimes have tunnel vision > > > You sometimes find you can ignore pain > > > > > > > > > You'll find a valid, reliable online questionnaire > > for dissociation > > > here. If you found yourself saying "yes" to > > several of the symptoms of > > > dissociation above, I recommend you check it out. > > > > > > You may be able to do some self-help with techniques I > > mention here. > > > > > > But if you continue to experience discomfort or > > difficulty functioning > > > due to dissociation symptoms, I suggest you speak > > about it with a > > > mental health professional â" if only to ease your > > mind. > > > > > > John M. Knapp, LMSW > > > Therapist. Cult counselor. Coach > > > KnappFamilyCounseling.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
