Turq, sounds like you identify quite closely with that which you pasted. Could've been written and applied by you, huh? :-)
I stand by my earlier statement that you contributed a hundred lines or more to a discussion about your socio-pathic teachers, vs. my six lines of comment. And yet you agree with a claim that I am the one upset, or even crazy? really? lol. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@> wrote: > > > > Hey Turq, I wasn't the one going on today for a hundred > > lines or so about the sociopathic traits of your teachers, > > many traits which you recognized in them. > > Only about twenty of the lines were mine. The rest were > pasted in from a psychology website. Like this one: > > * Pathological Lying. Has no problem lying coolly and easily > and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a > consistent basis. > > > Please don't associate me with such things. They are yours > > and yours alone to deal with. > > > > I am sorry that you find yourself in this way - perhaps > > the move to the Netherlands isn't working out as grandly > > as you had hoped? Anyway, hope you wake up in a better > > mood tomorrow. :-) > > Or this one: > > * Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others... > > :-) > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <geezerfreak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Why does this discussion make you so upset? > > > > > > My thoughts exactly. I am hardly the first thinker > > > to point out that the qualities associated with > > > "enlightenment" or "sainthood" are closer to those > > > associated with madness than they are those assoc- > > > iated with normality. > > > > > > Noticing parallels between the DSM-IV criteria for > > > diagnosing sociopaths and either descriptions of > > > the "enlightened state" or actual behavior we've > > > seen in some who claimed to be in that state seems > > > to me to be a "no harm, no foul" suggestion. Such > > > parallels exist. One doesn't have to have a particular > > > interest in any particular guru or so-called enlightened > > > person to be interested in such parallels. > > > > > > Perhaps some of what Jim is upset about is that he's > > > in the past presented himself as enlightened. And > > > so he'd prefer that the DSM-IV criteria not be made > > > reference to when assessing his behavior. :-) > > > > > > I think we all know that at least one person here is > > > probably going to try to apply these criteria to me. > > > And that is her right. Only thing is, I'm neither a > > > spiritual teacher nor a person who has ever claimed > > > enlightenment, so if I'm a sociopath, I'm a pretty > > > low-rent and harmless one. :-) > > > > > > Others to whom these criteria might be applied are > > > more famous and have more students or followers, and > > > thus have influenced and continue to influence far > > > more people. So if one of the possible descriptions > > > of their personality is "sociopath," that's probably > > > more of an issue. IMO, of course. > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Maharishi is dead and gone. I'll repeat that and see if > > > > > it sinks in: Maharishi is dead and gone. Trying to ascribe > > > > > this or that to him at this point is like trying to walk > > > > > around in a lost pair of shoes. I guess he made much more > > > > > of an impression on you (line etched in stone) than he > > > > > did me. I just do TM and don't think twice about it, or > > > > > Maharishi. Why not get over it? :-) > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting post, Michael. I cannot help but agree with many of your > > > > > > points. Just as an exercise in open-mindedness, compare the > > > > > > following > > > > > > list of personality traits with your own personal list of "gurus I > > > > > > have > > > > > > known up close." You may include or not include Maharishi...your > > > > > > call: > > > > > > > > > > > > * Glibness and Superficial Charm. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Manipulative and Cunning. They never recognize the rights of > > > > > > others > > > > > > and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to > > > > > > be > > > > > > charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their > > > > > > victim > > > > > > as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate > > > > > > their victims. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Grandiose Sense of Self. Feels entitled to certain things as > > > > > > "their > > > > > > right." > > > > > > > > > > > > * Pathological Lying. Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it > > > > > > is > > > > > > almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can > > > > > > create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own > > > > > > powers > > > > > > and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie > > > > > > detector > > > > > > tests. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is > > > > > > split > > > > > > off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around > > > > > > them as > > > > > > people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, > > > > > > they > > > > > > have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always > > > > > > justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Shallow Emotions. When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, > > > > > > love > > > > > > and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an > > > > > > ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining > > > > > > unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they > > > > > > are not > > > > > > genuine, neither are their promises. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incapacity for Love. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Need for Stimulation. Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and > > > > > > physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are > > > > > > common. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Callousness/Lack of Empathy. Unable to empathize with the pain of > > > > > > their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of > > > > > > distress and > > > > > > readily taking advantage of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature. Rage and abuse, > > > > > > alternating > > > > > > with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive > > > > > > cycle > > > > > > for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the > > > > > > victim. > > > > > > Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, > > > > > > no > > > > > > sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency. Usually has a > > > > > > history of > > > > > > behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning > > > > > > others. > > > > > > Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as > > > > > > cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Irresponsibility/Unreliability. Not concerned about wrecking > > > > > > others' > > > > > > lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they > > > > > > cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for > > > > > > acts they obviously committed. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity. Promiscuity, child sexual > > > > > > abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle. Tends to move > > > > > > around > > > > > > a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work > > > > > > ethic > > > > > > but exploits others effectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility. Changes their image as > > > > > > needed > > > > > > to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Authoritarian. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Secretive. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Paranoid. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations > > > > > > where > > > > > > their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Goal of enslavement of their victim(s). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs > > > > > > their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Unable to feel remorse or guilt. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Extreme narcissism and grandiose. > > > > > > > > > > > > * May state readily that their goal is to rule the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you haven't guessed already, these are traits that indicate the > > > > > > DSM-IV diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. Those who > > > > > > exhibit > > > > > > all or many of these traits are deemed "sociopaths" or > > > > > > "psychopaths." > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it fascinating to compare this list to "gurus I have known up > > > > > > close?" It certainly is for me. Maharishi meets many of these > > > > > > criteria, > > > > > > and Rama (Frederick Lenz) even more of them (especially the "living > > > > > > on > > > > > > the edge" and "early behavioral problems" criteria). > > > > > > > > > > > > The fascinating thing from my religious sociology perspective is > > > > > > that > > > > > > the sociopath is more likely to be able to *get away with* such > > > > > > behavior > > > > > > in a "spiritual" setting than in a normal societal setting. Many of > > > > > > these behaviors, especially the ones that reinforce the sociopath's > > > > > > belief that he/she is 'special' or 'all-powerful,' are in fact right > > > > > > there in print in their own definitions of "the enlightened." > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as an observation, and *not* a criticism because I've certainly > > > > > > found myself doing it as well with "gurus I have known," did you > > > > > > notice > > > > > > how consistently in your post that you strove to find a way to "let > > > > > > Maharishi off the hook" for some of the things you're aware that he > > > > > > did, > > > > > > to find a way to "excuse" them or say that they eventually led to > > > > > > something better in some of his students? Now look at the last > > > > > > criterion > > > > > > I posted above, and think about the phrase "willing victim." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Flatley" > > > > > > <untilbeyond@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > I still do TM in the morning, love it and thank MMY for it. But > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > find some of the > > > > > > > > things he did...some known by many and some that must remain > > > > > > > > quiet > > > > > > for a bit > > > > > > > > longer, frankly horrifying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it not seem possible to overdose on a single mantra? Or to > > > > > > > put > > > > > > it another way, don't you find that you can journey into a state of > > > > > > pure > > > > > > awareness without internally reciting your TM mantra? I have the > > > > > > opinion that 125,000 repetitions should be the maximum for one > > > > > > mantra in > > > > > > one lifetime. TM was supposed to offer a pipeline to our inner > > > > > > knowing... sufficiently... within a few years. At which point, we > > > > > > would > > > > > > be conscious beings. We are all at a point where we can invent our > > > > > > own > > > > > > technology of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guru Dev encouraged people to be spiritually eclectic. MMY did > > > > > > > the > > > > > > opposite. Additionally, MMY gave no coaching as to when it's time > > > > > > to > > > > > > discontinue utilizing the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In '82, a close friend shared his dismay that after spending a > > > > > > > lot on > > > > > > travel + $700 for the bliss technique, it turned out to be > > > > > > something he > > > > > > was already doing. In the '80s, MMY was pushing us away, and > > > > > > signaling > > > > > > that we were already capable of self-direction, and appropriate > > > > > > innovation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A second friend told me the same thing. So I asked myself, "do I > > > > > > > also > > > > > > already do this?" My knowing said yes. I was never tempted to > > > > > > pursue > > > > > > that instruction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The last time I visited Fairfield was 2000. I saw a sidha I had > > > > > > > known > > > > > > 15 years earlier. Very nice guy... and I gotta say, he really > > > > > > looked > > > > > > like he had overdosed on the golden dome program. I didn't tell > > > > > > him > > > > > > that his aura looked like chalk to me. He indicated that he still > > > > > > believed that MMY saved the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do y'all remember the story about MMY getting word from Mother > > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > that our planet had gone too far into chaos, and it would be > > > > > > impossible > > > > > > to turn it around, so she was was ready to pull the plug, and let > > > > > > the > > > > > > Earth be destroyed? MMY presented an argument for needing some > > > > > > time to > > > > > > create coherence by getting one percent meditating, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Mother Divine said, I don't know Mahesh, you'd probably just > > > > > > > be > > > > > > wasting your time. Yet, MMY insisted that if she could just be > > > > > > patient > > > > > > and give him a few years, he should be able to get things turned > > > > > > around > > > > > > with enough people transcending. So she decided to give him a > > > > > > chance to > > > > > > fix the world. This was '78, when I heard this... my first year at > > > > > > MIU. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >But I find some of the things he did...some known by many and > > > > > > > >some > > > > > > that must > > > > > > > > remain quiet for a bit longer, frankly horrifying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are already familiar with how he violated Guru Dev's > > > > > > request to not ever try to be a guru. And how Guru Dev did not put > > > > > > him > > > > > > in his will. And that Guru Dev died from poisoning. And he died in > > > > > > Calcutta, on a speaking engagement that MMY supervised. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And then MMY just took Guru Dev's diamond after he died. It was > > > > > > > never > > > > > > giving to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fast Forward to the final years: The E course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MMY: You give me $1 million. I will give you enlightenment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He then proceeded to reserve the cheapest one star hotels in > > > > > > > Holland > > > > > > for these course participants forking over one million dollars. > > > > > > This is > > > > > > not horrifying though. It's a kindness, in that he was now > > > > > > presenting > > > > > > himself as a charlatan to help these idiots become more conscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When he fired the original board of Trustees in September of > > > > > > > '79.... I > > > > > > was very surprised, and I withheld all judgement. Much later, I > > > > > > found > > > > > > out that they were canned because they disagreed with his intention > > > > > > to > > > > > > extract tuition funds from MIU and move the money out of North > > > > > > America > > > > > > into some bogus projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I first visited MIU in '76, the food was excellent. It was > > > > > > > still > > > > > > great in '77. Dropped slightly in '78. After the trustees were > > > > > > fired, > > > > > > the food budget was slashed. Previously, they were breaking even on > > > > > > food... or making a small profit. After the goons took control, the > > > > > > cafeteria became a profit center, and the food budget dropped to a > > > > > > minimum level. Bevan was experimenting to see what he could get > > > > > > away > > > > > > with without too much protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never griped about this because it is so utterly trivial. > > > > > > Gradually, I found out that over 900 million was saved up in his > > > > > > name, > > > > > > in swiss bank accounts. I just kept waiting for him to do something > > > > > > wonderful with these funds.... and then he died. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My biggest question: What the true hidden agenda, aside from the > > > > > > economic pathology? Is anybody asking this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Earl Kaplan makes a strong case for mmy as predator, except that > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > colored by his resentment over being conned out of more than 100 > > > > > > million > > > > > > dollars. He goes as far as to suggest that MMY is a demon soul... > > > > > > that > > > > > > children can see his true nature, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MMY was abusive oftentimes, and there is no evidence of remorse. > > > > > > > When > > > > > > Kaplan found out about him taking the diamond, he called him on the > > > > > > telephone to get a confirmation. MMY confirmed taking it, and > > > > > > expressed > > > > > > no shame or embarrassment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mia Farrow was certain that he was making inappropriate advances. > > > > > > > She > > > > > > made a fuss about it. There was no embarrassment, no shame, no > > > > > > remorse. > > > > > > This does indicate a psychological pathology. The Beatles ended TM > > > > > > abruptly as a result of this goof. Had they stayed with TM an extra > > > > > > year, and not written Sexy Sadie, we would've had an extra million > > > > > > people getting instructed, don't you think? Is that a minor or > > > > > > major > > > > > > mistake? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the negative behavior is unconscious, and some of it is > > > > > > anti-conscious. And then there is the brilliant stuff. and he has > > > > > > oftentimes shown kindness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Charlie Lutes was a good friend to MMY in the 60's. They have > > > > > > > phone > > > > > > conversations in the 70's. MMY kicked Charlie off the board in > > > > > > '79. > > > > > > Did they still have any relationship after that? Did any of you go > > > > > > to a > > > > > > Charlie presentation in the 90's? If yes, did he comment on MMY > > > > > > personalty changes over the years? Didn't his personality decline > > > > > > over > > > > > > time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being a demonic predator socio-path, > > > > > > > and 10 > > > > > > = He saved the world so the transgressions are irrelevant... Kaplan > > > > > > gives him a 1.... and Bevan Morris gives him a 10. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a number yet. Might be a 2. Some of you are in the > > > > > > mid-range. And I know some of you are burned out on this topic. > > > > > > For > > > > > > god's sake, click on another topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I live in Chicago, and go months at a time without ever thing > > > > > > > about > > > > > > this. I am not mingling with anyone from TMO. This group gives me > > > > > > the > > > > > > opportunity hear peoples thoughts on something that I find > > > > > > mysterious. > > > > > > The cool thing about TMO was the phenomenal people that it attracted > > > > > > (and then repelled.) So I do have tremendous nostalgia for the > > > > > > social > > > > > > dynamic. This is a great site for that reason. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think asking the questions and having the discussions is > > > > > > incredibly healthy and useful for many, certainly for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
