--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@...> wrote: > > Maharishi is dead and gone. I'll repeat that and see if it > sinks in: Maharishi is dead and gone. Trying to ascribe this > or that to him at this point is like trying to walk around > in a lost pair of shoes.
Leaving the DSM-IV criteria in place below, I have a question to ask of you, Jimbo. Did you ever actually *meet* Maharishi? Were you ever in the same room with him, or spend days, weeks, months, or years watching him interact with people, and thus be capable of determining whether he either meets or does not not meet these criteria? > I guess he made much more of an impression on you (line etched > in stone) than he did me. I just do TM and don't think twice > about it, or Maharishi. Why not get over it? :-) Some would say that you "don't think twice" about much of *anything*, Jimbo. And you consistently react to anyone who suggests that maybe it would be in your interest *to* try thinking for a change by trying to demonize them. Why not just get over it? > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > Interesting post, Michael. I cannot help but agree with many of your > > points. Just as an exercise in open-mindedness, compare the following > > list of personality traits with your own personal list of "gurus I have > > known up close." You may include or not include Maharishi...your call: > > > > * Glibness and Superficial Charm. > > > > * Manipulative and Cunning. They never recognize the rights of others > > and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be > > charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim > > as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate > > their victims. > > > > * Grandiose Sense of Self. Feels entitled to certain things as "their > > right." > > > > * Pathological Lying. Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is > > almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can > > create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers > > and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector > > tests. > > > > * Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is split > > off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as > > people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they > > have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always > > justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. > > > > * Shallow Emotions. When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love > > and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an > > ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining > > unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not > > genuine, neither are their promises. > > > > * Incapacity for Love. > > > > * Need for Stimulation. Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and > > physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. > > > > * Callousness/Lack of Empathy. Unable to empathize with the pain of > > their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and > > readily taking advantage of them. > > > > * Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature. Rage and abuse, alternating > > with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle > > for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. > > Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no > > sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. > > > > * Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency. Usually has a history of > > behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. > > Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as > > cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. > > > > * Irresponsibility/Unreliability. Not concerned about wrecking others' > > lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they > > cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for > > acts they obviously committed. > > > > * Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity. Promiscuity, child sexual > > abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. > > > > * Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle. Tends to move around > > a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic > > but exploits others effectively. > > > > * Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility. Changes their image as needed > > to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily. > > > > * Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them. > > > > * Authoritarian. > > > > * Secretive. > > > > * Paranoid. > > > > * Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where > > their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired. > > > > * Goal of enslavement of their victim(s). > > > > * Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life. > > > > * Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs > > their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love). > > > > * Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim. > > > > * Unable to feel remorse or guilt. > > > > * Extreme narcissism and grandiose. > > > > * May state readily that their goal is to rule the world. > > > > If you haven't guessed already, these are traits that indicate the > > DSM-IV diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. Those who exhibit > > all or many of these traits are deemed "sociopaths" or "psychopaths." > > > > Isn't it fascinating to compare this list to "gurus I have known up > > close?" It certainly is for me. Maharishi meets many of these criteria, > > and Rama (Frederick Lenz) even more of them (especially the "living on > > the edge" and "early behavioral problems" criteria). > > > > The fascinating thing from my religious sociology perspective is that > > the sociopath is more likely to be able to *get away with* such behavior > > in a "spiritual" setting than in a normal societal setting. Many of > > these behaviors, especially the ones that reinforce the sociopath's > > belief that he/she is 'special' or 'all-powerful,' are in fact right > > there in print in their own definitions of "the enlightened." > > > > Just as an observation, and *not* a criticism because I've certainly > > found myself doing it as well with "gurus I have known," did you notice > > how consistently in your post that you strove to find a way to "let > > Maharishi off the hook" for some of the things you're aware that he did, > > to find a way to "excuse" them or say that they eventually led to > > something better in some of his students? Now look at the last criterion > > I posted above, and think about the phrase "willing victim." > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Flatley" > > <untilbeyond@> wrote: > > > > > > > --- Joe wrote: > > > > I still do TM in the morning, love it and thank MMY for it. But I > > find some of the > > > > things he did...some known by many and some that must remain quiet > > for a bit > > > > longer, frankly horrifying. > > > > > > Does it not seem possible to overdose on a single mantra? Or to put > > it another way, don't you find that you can journey into a state of pure > > awareness without internally reciting your TM mantra? I have the > > opinion that 125,000 repetitions should be the maximum for one mantra in > > one lifetime. TM was supposed to offer a pipeline to our inner > > knowing... sufficiently... within a few years. At which point, we would > > be conscious beings. We are all at a point where we can invent our own > > technology of consciousness. > > > > > > Guru Dev encouraged people to be spiritually eclectic. MMY did the > > opposite. Additionally, MMY gave no coaching as to when it's time to > > discontinue utilizing the same mantra. > > > > > > In '82, a close friend shared his dismay that after spending a lot on > > travel + $700 for the bliss technique, it turned out to be something he > > was already doing. In the '80s, MMY was pushing us away, and signaling > > that we were already capable of self-direction, and appropriate > > innovation. > > > > > > A second friend told me the same thing. So I asked myself, "do I also > > already do this?" My knowing said yes. I was never tempted to pursue > > that instruction. > > > > > > The last time I visited Fairfield was 2000. I saw a sidha I had known > > 15 years earlier. Very nice guy... and I gotta say, he really looked > > like he had overdosed on the golden dome program. I didn't tell him > > that his aura looked like chalk to me. He indicated that he still > > believed that MMY saved the world. > > > > > > Do y'all remember the story about MMY getting word from Mother Divine > > that our planet had gone too far into chaos, and it would be impossible > > to turn it around, so she was was ready to pull the plug, and let the > > Earth be destroyed? MMY presented an argument for needing some time to > > create coherence by getting one percent meditating, etc. > > > > > > And Mother Divine said, I don't know Mahesh, you'd probably just be > > wasting your time. Yet, MMY insisted that if she could just be patient > > and give him a few years, he should be able to get things turned around > > with enough people transcending. So she decided to give him a chance to > > fix the world. This was '78, when I heard this... my first year at MIU. > > > > > > >But I find some of the things he did...some known by many and some > > that must > > > > remain quiet for a bit longer, frankly horrifying. > > > > > > Most of us are already familiar with how he violated Guru Dev's > > request to not ever try to be a guru. And how Guru Dev did not put him > > in his will. And that Guru Dev died from poisoning. And he died in > > Calcutta, on a speaking engagement that MMY supervised. > > > > > > And then MMY just took Guru Dev's diamond after he died. It was never > > giving to him. > > > > > > Fast Forward to the final years: The E course. > > > > > > MMY: You give me $1 million. I will give you enlightenment > > > > > > He then proceeded to reserve the cheapest one star hotels in Holland > > for these course participants forking over one million dollars. This is > > not horrifying though. It's a kindness, in that he was now presenting > > himself as a charlatan to help these idiots become more conscious. > > > > > > When he fired the original board of Trustees in September of '79.... I > > was very surprised, and I withheld all judgement. Much later, I found > > out that they were canned because they disagreed with his intention to > > extract tuition funds from MIU and move the money out of North America > > into some bogus projects. > > > > > > When I first visited MIU in '76, the food was excellent. It was still > > great in '77. Dropped slightly in '78. After the trustees were fired, > > the food budget was slashed. Previously, they were breaking even on > > food... or making a small profit. After the goons took control, the > > cafeteria became a profit center, and the food budget dropped to a > > minimum level. Bevan was experimenting to see what he could get away > > with without too much protest. > > > > > > I never griped about this because it is so utterly trivial. > > Gradually, I found out that over 900 million was saved up in his name, > > in swiss bank accounts. I just kept waiting for him to do something > > wonderful with these funds.... and then he died. > > > > > > My biggest question: What the true hidden agenda, aside from the > > economic pathology? Is anybody asking this? > > > > > > Earl Kaplan makes a strong case for mmy as predator, except that it's > > colored by his resentment over being conned out of more than 100 million > > dollars. He goes as far as to suggest that MMY is a demon soul... that > > children can see his true nature, etc. > > > > > > MMY was abusive oftentimes, and there is no evidence of remorse. When > > Kaplan found out about him taking the diamond, he called him on the > > telephone to get a confirmation. MMY confirmed taking it, and expressed > > no shame or embarrassment. > > > > > > Mia Farrow was certain that he was making inappropriate advances. She > > made a fuss about it. There was no embarrassment, no shame, no remorse. > > This does indicate a psychological pathology. The Beatles ended TM > > abruptly as a result of this goof. Had they stayed with TM an extra > > year, and not written Sexy Sadie, we would've had an extra million > > people getting instructed, don't you think? Is that a minor or major > > mistake? > > > > > > Some of the negative behavior is unconscious, and some of it is > > anti-conscious. And then there is the brilliant stuff. and he has > > oftentimes shown kindness. > > > > > > Charlie Lutes was a good friend to MMY in the 60's. They have phone > > conversations in the 70's. MMY kicked Charlie off the board in '79. > > Did they still have any relationship after that? Did any of you go to a > > Charlie presentation in the 90's? If yes, did he comment on MMY > > personalty changes over the years? Didn't his personality decline over > > time? > > > > > > On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being a demonic predator socio-path, and 10 > > = He saved the world so the transgressions are irrelevant... Kaplan > > gives him a 1.... and Bevan Morris gives him a 10. > > > > > > I don't have a number yet. Might be a 2. Some of you are in the > > mid-range. And I know some of you are burned out on this topic. For > > god's sake, click on another topic. > > > > > > I live in Chicago, and go months at a time without ever thing about > > this. I am not mingling with anyone from TMO. This group gives me the > > opportunity hear peoples thoughts on something that I find mysterious. > > The cool thing about TMO was the phenomenal people that it attracted > > (and then repelled.) So I do have tremendous nostalgia for the social > > dynamic. This is a great site for that reason. Thank you. > > > > > > > I think asking the questions and having the discussions is > > incredibly healthy and useful for many, certainly for me. > > >
