--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" <j_alexander_stanley@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" <j_alexander_stanley@> > > wrote: <snip> > > > My recollection from conversations with the Revs crowd (Tom > > > T, Rory, et al.) is that free will vs. determinism is a > > > false dichotomy. > > > > I'd need to hear more before I knew what that meant (if > > I could even understand what it meant). > > > > But it's already a false dichotomy if free will (I am > > the Doer) is the experiential reality in waking-state > > consciousness, whereas determinism (I do not act at all) > > is the experiential reality in the enlightened state of > > consciousness. Ultimate Reality must somehow encompass > > both, so it can't be either/or. > > > > The main point wayback and I have been trying to get > > across to Barry is that determinism has no implications > > for life in waking-state consciousness. If you try to > > apply it to waking-state consciousness, you're just > > moodmaking. > > It was a conversation that took place back around 2005, > and I don't recall the details. I've never been drawn > to such philosophical discussions, and I don't have full > understanding of the concepts, but some personal > introspection brought up the issue of free will for me. > > I'd been reflecting on the pain of having been in the > closet and also on how being closeted completely shielded > me from the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s. I was feeling > thankful that my life was so much better now for having > gone through that (good health), but a couple days later, > the question came to me, would my life have been any less > perfect had I instead made different choices and become > an HIV statistic? I'm aware of the religious perspective > that we have free will to follow or not follow Divine law > or whatever, and I realized that regardless of what we > choose, the choice and outcome are always Divinely > *exactly* the way they should be. My conclusion is that > free will does exist, but it's basically an illusion. > > Does this touch on the issue of determinism vs. free will? > I don't know because I don't really grok determinism... > this could be an entirely different issue. It's simply the > degree to which I've pondered the concept of free will.
Sounds to me as though it's precisely the same issue, just stated slightly differently from the way we've been talking about it recently. I've posted this many times before, but it seems to be germane here: MMY is reported to have said (and he isn't the only one by any means), "Everything is perfect just the way it is." He was then asked, "If that's the case, why are we working so hard to change things?" And he responded, "That too is perfect just the way it is." (The specific question about working to change things isn't what's germane to your situation; it's the paradox itself. That question just highlights it very neatly.) Maybe another way to state what you said is: We really do have free will to make choices (including "bad" choices), but it's an illusion to think those choices can be anything but perfect from the divine perspective. I should put "divine perspective" in quotes, because it's way too anthropomorphic, at least for me. Needless to say, although I hate it that you had to spend all that miserable time in the closet, from my own perspective the result--your healthy, vibrant, clear-thinking presence here--is a delight. Can you say more about your realization that choices and their outcome are always exactly what they should be? I mean, what did it feel like to have that realization? Can you describe the experience? Was it a gradual process, or a sudden light bulb going on? Did Waking Down have anything to do with it?
