Hey Curtis, What do you identify as "trollish behavior"? I am curious because I was reading up on it (wiki-p), and the distinction appears to be a troll is someone making disruptive posts, in order to provoke an emotional reaction, vs. those participating in a current discussion, or presenting an idea for discussion. I didn't read Ravi's post as trollish. He states his ideas directly, but he is also willing to clarify and discuss them.
On the other hand there is a practice by others here, where the intent is to proclaim something knowingly false, or distorted, in order to provoke those on the forum. The high minded justification appears to be that it is somehow "tantric" to create this kind of conflict, when all that is happening is those expressing things in this way are enjoying their intellect, posting such things seen as trollish as a means to prove to themselves again and again that they can express ideas. Perhaps that is the distinction between a troll post (exclusive) and a non-troll post - The troll post is posted purely for the delight of expressing an idea - it is all about the poster and the reactions he can elicit. The intent is not to have a discussion but rather provoke a response, which is then not responded to to form a discussion, but rather, enjoyed by the troll as the reflected rays of the troll post. It is all about the troll. An inclusive post on the other hand is a comment on, or an initiation of, a discussion. Given that criteria, I'd characterize Ravi's post as inclusive and non-trollish, a comment on yours and Edg's discussion. What do you think? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Yogi" <raviyogi@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nice piece, Dude. > > > > > > Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg. > > > > > > Wow Curtis & Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others who > > might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain English the > > summary would be - "my shit doesn't smell any better or worse than yours, > > but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant." > > So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual list it > wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior? > > The troll routine is soooooo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it isn't > interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with if > you want to become more than a troll interloper here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that > > > > we also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we > > > > mindfully have put into place? Even the mundane is ritualized thereby. > > > > I always have mustard with my hot dog just as much as these guys have > > > > to have a certain amount of candles lit for their "hotdogish" ceremony. > > > > See? > > > > > > Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the > > > shark. We can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that is > > > not too easy which is one of the things I dig about it. I am challenged > > > by a completely different audience every show. But the level of sameness > > > in their lives is exponentially higher. When I was living in Maharishi's > > > approximation of that life my mind would focus on tiny differences to > > > give me some sense of non routine. The bigger issue with monastic life > > > is that they never interact with some guy at the filling station who > > > snakes in front of you when you have been waiting in line for the air > > > hose for two cars. > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change > > > > than these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are > > > > spiritually evolving them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary > > > > life can "do Edg." > > > > > > I seriously doubt you are. And you raised kids so you have automatically > > > lived a life of new shit coming at you that kicks my life's surprises' > > > butt. > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be > > > > omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have > > > > the deepest divinity available, and the only missing element is my > > > > intent to see it or, lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can > > > > evolve a mind capable of doing so. > > > > > > Very Thomas Merton. I think that way too. > > > > > > > > > > > These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a > > > > cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by > > > > such objects to re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine, > > > > > > Is it really "the divine" of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire to > > > that? I really think that this type of focus is totally overrated. > > > > > > < but the likes of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of > > > penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep silence about it > > > which is the exact holiness these monks seek.> > > > > > > I think they are more like us than different. They have just made all > > > the things in society (sans chicks) into a doll house. They may think > > > about life more than an average person, but they are thinking within a > > > pretty tiny perspective. I don't see them as that deep or profound, just > > > a mix like in my own life. > > > > > > > > > > > To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and > > > > they're doing canned food. We might not always get what we want, but > > > > we get it fresh and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes. > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > I did enjoy the concentration of life's focus when I lived that way or > > > visited them in monasteries. There is a definite hippie charm to their > > > lives. But I believe that it would be a very limiting context for my > > > life to grow in. And the chance for living a live of folle au deux times > > > everyone in the monastery seems pretty high. That is too many people > > > trying to agree on something for my tastes. As I said in my original > > > reaction, I believe they have forced their ideas on the world rather than > > > being open to other perspectives on it. And the busy busy busy deal with > > > other dudes in your face all the time is my idea (and Camus') of hell! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into > > > > > spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their > > > > > alternative lifestyle. Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo > > > > > culture, interesting, but I keep my distance. I certainly dig the > > > > > chanting and the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes > > > > > singing Salve Reginia to an image of Mary. I'm sure if I was to step > > > > > into a monastery today I would happily slip into the the kind of > > > > > trance I used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day. > > > > > > > > > > But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos made me feel > > > > > as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than > > > > > being open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had > > > > > opted for dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then > > > > > were only going with that. It frankly smacks of good old fashioned > > > > > small mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me > > > > > to respect them. It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are > > > > > in collusion in a "we state it so it is so" game. > > > > > > > > > > When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on > > > > > maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass > > > > > bikers of spirituality. I mean once you accept the premise of > > > > > spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it. Not even letting > > > > > your "small boss" get in the way. That was the thinking I had when I > > > > > went off to Sidhaland. I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket. > > > > > (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a > > > > > life full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW. > > > > > Really, we were sure of it. Placing our irrefutablity on what we > > > > > thought was the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked > > > > > the epistemological tools to question it all. We had been taught the > > > > > way to evaluate it by the same guy who was pitching us his version of > > > > > reality. So it all fit so nicely, puuuuurrrrrfectly. > > > > > > > > > > I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. Really important > > > > > things. Things I had believed were irrefutable. So now I have a bit > > > > > more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a > > > > > "reaaaalllllly" in my reaction to people who get into groups and > > > > > decide they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond > > > > > the grave and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition. > > > > > We aren't nearly as clever as we think we are. It is software bug > > > > > that we need to respect more if our goal is to go beyond, "hey me and > > > > > Fred and Sam have all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a > > > > > lifetime sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure > > > > > this is what's up. Fer reaaaalllllll." > > > > > > > > > > And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great > > > > > impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open > > > > > to where their life leads them. They may actually believe that they > > > > > are open-minded. But they are playing with a stacked deck and their > > > > > openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont > > > > > rock the boat. They are not getting out of that boat into the big > > > > > old ocean of "not so damn sure about the Jesus thing". > > > > > > > > > > I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland. It was a carefully > > > > > regulated life that had its slightly mind numbing charms. And I know > > > > > that some people are really not capable of being mainstreamed so this > > > > > kind of safe environment is the best place for them. > > > > > > > > > > But I would rather take the bitter pill of "you don't have life all > > > > > figured out" over their lives full of being busy being busy. They > > > > > max out their schedules in Athos so they never have to sit in some > > > > > real uncoerced silence and face the dilemma of being human without a > > > > > manual spelling it all out. I am glad they found something they like > > > > > to fill their day with. But 10 minutes for meals is just > > > > > disrespectful to the kind of food I like to eat. And huddling > > > > > together in a fabricated reality is a pretty cheap substitute to > > > > > letting life wash over you on its own terms. They are giving a lot > > > > > of lip-service to a God, but their very lifestyle negates so much of > > > > > what would have to be his creation. You know, if one of the > > > > > thousands of God ideas turned out to be true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajradhatu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know > > > > > > > about the daily living on Mt. Athos. I had kind of expected > > > > > > > something different. It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial > > > > > > > than I had expected. Really, I question the degree of > > > > > > > spirtituality present there. What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They seemed to be engaging in some sort of divine theurgy, didn't > > > > > > they? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite impressive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
