--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <LEnglish5@...> wrote: > > Interesting thing I learned recently: some of the people reporting CC also > report that ether doesn't shut things down completely -- pure consciousness > still remains.
**Yep. Nothing causes a complete lack of awareness after PC is established 24/7. Its like that phrase about water cannot put it out, flame cannot burn it, etc. It outlasts everything, even bodily death. > > And having some level of consciousness during anesthesia isn't all that > unusual in non-enlightened people either. Unfortunately, it is waking state > that is preserved and horrible, horrible, horrible cases of PTSD can result > from being awake during an operation while being unable to scream as the bone > saw cuts off your leg. > > L > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" <fintlewoodlewix@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@> wrote: > > > > > > Doc, I keep coming back to this. It seems to be the most basic > > truth, the only one we can know absolutely: awareness exists. > > > > I think a general anaesthetic is a damn fine way of demonstrating > > the biological nature of consciousness. Just a little bit of ether > > and things shut down, taking awareness with it. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: "doctordumbass@" <doctordumbass@> > > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:42 AM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: SELF-HYPNOTIZE: Channel, End Negativity, > > > Feel Good, Achieve Goals Dr. Shelley S > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > I was wondering the same thing. Probably not, but the paradox to finding > > > the answer to that question, is that, in order for me to assess such a > > > thing, in the moment, I must have a structure in mind, even if it is only > > > a cloud, or an atom. So, I can answer it in practical terms, and the > > > answer is no. But I will probably never know the answer, absolutely. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Doc, do you think ANY structure is necessary for consciousness?à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "doctordumbass@" <doctordumbass@> > > > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:23 AM > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: SELF-HYPNOTIZE: Channel, End Negativity, > > > > Feel Good, Achieve Goals Dr. Shelley S > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > Thoughts and consciousness are not the same thing. Consciousness or > > > > awareness is fundamental, with thoughts secondary. So for thoughts, > > > > yes, you need a brain. But for consciousness, the brain structure isn't > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" <fintlewoodlewix@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <authfriend@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" > > > > > > <fintlewoodlewix@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <authfriend@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" > > > > > > > > <fintlewoodlewix@> wrote: > > > > > > (snip) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yup, and it's perfectly natural to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > complex and assume that it must have been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > created > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by something more complex. This was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Darwins genius > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as he showed it isn't the case where > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > biology is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > concerned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But not where human consciousness is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > concerned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a belief. And a strange one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also just a belief that biology is responsible for > > > > > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which words did you not understand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess it's just a belief that biology is responsible for my > > > > > > > > > heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Non sequitur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The heartbeat is a biological thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I guess the brain isn't...... > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to be losing track of the conversation. The brain > > > > > > is biological, like the heartbeat; consciousness may well > > > > > > not be. That's why the notion that consciousness is > > > > > > biological is just a belief, like the notion that it isnT. > > > > > > > > > > That's really anything funny you know. > > > > > > > > > > To give you a clue: Just try thinking that without a brain. > > > > > Brains create consciousness, they also create the ability > > > > > for brains to create and hold models that entirely contradict > > > > > how brains themselves behave. The Greeks thought that brains > > > > > were for cooling blood as it went round the body! You can't > > > > > rely solely on people to work things out philosophically, > > > > > they believe sorts of weird stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mystical types start from the wrong place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not doing mysticism here. There are very significant > > > > > > > > thinkers in philosophy and science who are not mystics or > > > > > > > > believers in God who make the points I'm making. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So? > > > > > > > > > > > > So it's possible to think evolution doesn't explain > > > > > > consciousness without being a mystic, which means you > > > > > > can't blame my views on consciousness on my being a > > > > > > "mystical type" (if I even am). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And where they start from is the fact that the biology of > > > > > > > > evolution doesn't account for human consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim to understand evolution but have you considered how > > > > > > > > > an alternative might fit in? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An alternative to evolution? Why would that be necessary? > > > > > > > > Nothing > > > > > > > > wrong with evolution as it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than that it can't account for human consciousness? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing wrong with that. It just means we have to look > > > > > > elsewhere for an understanding of consciousness. Why > > > > > > would we even expect evolution to provide the answers to > > > > > > all questions? That it doesn't isn't a flaw in evolution, > > > > > > it's a flaw in our expectations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS I know what the "hard" problem is. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to hear that. If you didn't know, there'd be > > > > > > some excuse for your inability to contribute anything > > > > > > thoughtful to this discussion (not necessarily agreement, > > > > > > but at least thoughtful disagreement). You want to "win" > > > > > > without having to do any work. > > > > > > > > > > Win what? > > > > > > > > > > > You're more than welcome to withdraw from the conversation > > > > > > if it doesn't interest you. > > > > > > > > > > I'm withdrawing because you haven't offered anything new yet. > > > > > We just go back to where we start. You won't get anywhere without > > > > > evidence that brains aren't capable of creating consciousness and > > > > > as every step in brain imaging and understanding gets us closer > > > > > to thoughts, how to measure them and where they come from, some > > > > > might say the mystics are in for a bit of a disappointment. Which > > > > > shouldn't be the case as learning stuff is worth it for its own > > > > > sake but a majority still believe in gods and afterlives so it's > > > > > going to be tricky to convince them and it's probably the sort > > > > > of thing that people will think they can take or leave and it > > > > > won't matter, and they'd be right in every practical way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
