I absolutely agree with your first paragraph - yet you still refuse to answer a
very simple question. If TM and TMSP are as effective as you say they are and
as effective as the TMO claims it is - with no negative side effects, no down
side whatsoever, how then can such unethical behavior come from people who have
been doing the practices regularly for decades? If TM and TMSP are as billed,
those behaviors should have vanished long ago or never manifested in the first
place. Yet we see a pervasive and decades long "lack of virtuous ethical
standard" And such lack of ethics all started with your much vaunted Maharishi.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2/22/14, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] RE: Moral Behavior and TM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 22, 2014, 5:25 PM
Thanks Feste37,
That is high praise coming
from you and I appreciate that. A challenge here for TM is
that
while we have had a large movement of good-hearted
practitioner
meditators we evidently have also had an unethical
managerial class
long exercising power over the the culture of the
organization and
its meditator practitioners. As a lack of virtuous ethical
standard
became apparent a lot of meditators of the meditating
movement over
time have simply melted away their support. Our lack in
effectiveness as an organization quietly became about the
lack of
ethic in management as then what was a large meditating
movement
walked away.
This same kind of lack in
virtue of ethics is now being discovered in the officer
corps and
culture of the U.S. military right now and it is actively
being
looked so at as to figure out why and what to do about it.
Lessons
to be had about effectiveness.
To my eye that couple in TM
India who are bringing sexual misconduct charges against
Girish Varma
have quite a lot of courage blowing the whistle within the
TM world
that they live in against a guy who is quite large in primal
control
and power force as his own autocratic element in the larger
TM organization these meditators have been dedicated
to.
A reason
that this Indian couple can challenge the horrific behaviour
is the
larger ethical context of Indian civil society around the
gang rapes
and the laws and commissions set up to assert ethical
standard of
rights of . If there is a standard articulated you got a
metric to
work off of. The couple has larger ethical standards
articulated in the civil code that gives them cover.
It will be relevant to watch how
the US military as an
organization re-fits its own ethical culture as we all
figure out
what to do with TM.org. See this NPR report that frames the
ethical
problem they have in the ethics of organizational culture
within the
military. There are some really great short comments
reflecting on
culture of ethics or lack thereof:
http://www.npr.org/2014/02/21/280759181/new-military-ethics-chief-will-face-a-full-plate
Like with the military,
it's a matter of having corporate statement about what
is expected
ethically and then that gives a metric to work off of.
Neither of
which the TMO has ever really had. It is time for a change
in that going forward,
-Buck
RW
writes: Nothing you do can change the past, but what you do
now can
make your
own
future.
feste37
writes:
Very
good post, Buck. You are exactly
right.
Buck
writes:
Yep;
No, no this is an old vendetta you keep. You have no idea
what they
are like now. Born in to life with their personalities,
their
upbringings and such all these people put their pants on one
leg at a
time in life. You left TM a long time ago. They stayed on
the path
and you wandered off in to the world a long time ago. This
is hardly
a scientific conclusion or spiritually fair what you are
asserting.
You'd have to come back to better judge how it goes for
these guys.
No, you are just making excuses for railing against TM again
instead
of understanding these people and what makes them tick
otherwise.
Their bad-behavior mostly likely had not anything to do with
the
practice of TM it was just who they were. -
Buck
Michael
Jackson wrote:
Specifically,
I have found fault with Bevan Morris, Greg and
Georgina
Wilson,
Bill Sands, Neal Patterson, Marshy, Girish, the
Srivastavas
brothers, Susan Humphries, Cris Crowell,
John Hagelin, Reed Martin and
all the lying and
manipulation that they and other small medium and
large
managers in the TMO have done.
RW writes:
So,
what do these people have to do with your meditation?
MJackson74
writes
Okay
Buddy, you are laying it on the line here:
"Obviously we are
born in to this wold with nature and then there is nurture.
Evidently
moral behavior is something developed and cultured in good
upbringing. My feeling in watching is that a lot of the bad
behavior
that MJ in writing here for instance is so upset about in
the TM
community movement comes from bad upbringing and does not
have so
much of anything to do with whether some one meditates.
It's mostly
bad manners without virtue. Evidently. That's what I
see, they are
just being bad people for their poor upbringings and
sometimes they
are even immoral. Okay, that can be really bad at times on
the part
of some but not the normative of most folks. Just really bad
upbringing."
The whole point to many of my posts here is
that TM does not work as you claim it works. The WHOLE
FUCKING POINT
to TM all these years is that TM IMPROVES EVERYTHING! That
is the
claim made for it. That's the whole point to doing TM,
improving your
life. If one has bad upbringing, then TM can make you a
better
person. Why do you think the David Lynch leeches are pushing
so hard
to get TM to the AT RISK populations, especially the young
ones???
To, among other things, counteract BAD UPBRINGING!
So if bad
upbringing can't be negated or improved by regular
practice of TM,
what good is the practice? You have hoist yourself on your
own
petard, Buck. You seem to be saying that if one has bad
upbringing,
TM won't change the behavior that bad upbringing
creates.
Specifically, I have found fault with Bevan Morris,
Greg and Georgina Wilson, Bill Sands, Neal Patterson,
Marshy, Girish,
the Srivastavas brothers, Susan Humphries, Cris Crowell,
John
Hagelin, Reed Martin and all the lying and manipulation that
they and
other small medium and large managers in the TMO have done.
Are
you saying that all the above named individuals had bad
upbringing?
You are making excuses for why TM obviously seems to work in
reverse
for people who run the Movement.
Buck
writes:
Meditating,
“improved moral reasoning”, and moral behavior. Three
different
things evidently and possibly intertwined. Obviously we are
born in
to this wold with nature and then there is nurture.
Evidently moral
behavior is something developed and cultured in good
upbringing. My
feeling in watching is that a lot of the bad behavior that
MJ in
writing here for instance is so upset about in the TM
community
movement comes from bad upbringing and does not have so much
of
anything to do with whether some one meditates. It's
mostly bad
manners without virtue. Evidently. That's what I
see, they are
just being bad people for their poor upbringings and
sometimes they
are even immoral. Okay, that can be really bad at
times on the
part of some but not the normative of most folks. Just
really
bad upbringing.
.
For
instance, here is two minutes on improving behavior as
learned. ..
Some
sensitive caring in thoughtful upbringing, in 2
minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTqDfb-QhNg
-Buck
in the DomeVery good post, Buck.
You are exactly right.
Yep; No, no this is an old
vendetta you keep. You have no idea what they are like now.
Born in
to life with their personalities, their upbringings and such
all
these people put their pants on one leg at a time in life.
You left
TM a long time ago. They stayed on the path and you wandered
off in
to the world a long time ago. This is hardly a scientific
conclusion
or spiritually fair what you are asserting. You'd have
to come back
to better judge how it goes for these guys. No, you are
just making
excuses for railing against TM again instead of
understanding these people
and what makes them tick otherwise. Their bad-behavior
mostly likely
had not anything to do with the practice of TM it was just
who they
were.-Buck
, Michael Jackson wrote:
Specifically, I have found fault with
Bevan Morris, Greg and Georgina
Wilson, Bill Sands, Neal Patterson, Marshy, Girish,
the Srivastavas
brothers, Susan Humphries, Cris Crowell, John Hagelin,
Reed Martin and
all the lying and manipulation that they and other
small medium and
large managers in the TMO have done.
RW
writes:So, what do these people have to do with your
meditation?
MJackson74 writes
Okay
Buddy, you are laying it on the line here:
"Obviously we are born in to this wold with nature and
then there is nurture. Evidently moral behavior is something
developed and cultured in good upbringing. My feeling in
watching is that a lot of the bad behavior that MJ in
writing here for instance is so upset about in the TM
community movement comes from bad upbringing and does not
have so much of anything to do with whether some one
meditates. It's mostly bad manners without virtue.
Evidently. That's what I see, they are just being bad
people for their poor upbringings and sometimes they are
even immoral. Okay, that can be really bad at times on the
part of some but not the normative of most folks. Just
really bad upbringing."
The whole point to many of my posts here is that TM does not
work as you claim it works. The WHOLE FUCKING POINT to TM
all these years is that TM IMPROVES EVERYTHING! That is the
claim made for it. That's the whole point to doing TM,
improving your life. If one has bad upbringing, then TM can
make you a better person. Why do you think the David Lynch
leeches are pushing so hard to get TM to the AT RISK
populations, especially the young ones??? To, among other
things, counteract BAD UPBRINGING!
So if bad upbringing can't be negated or improved by
regular practice of TM, what good is the practice? You have
hoist yourself on your own petard, Buck. You seem to be
saying that if one has bad upbringing, TM won't change
the behavior that bad upbringing creates.
Specifically, I have found fault with Bevan Morris, Greg and
Georgina Wilson, Bill Sands, Neal Patterson, Marshy, Girish,
the Srivastavas brothers, Susan Humphries, Cris Crowell,
John Hagelin, Reed Martin and all the lying and manipulation
that they and other small medium and large managers in the
TMO have done.
Are you saying that all the above named individuals had bad
upbringing? You are making excuses for why TM obviously
seems to work in reverse for people who run the
Movement.
