Duveyoung, I was replying to this and Yahoo managed to not save most of my
draft, so I am having to reconstruct about 2/3 of what I had already written in
response, and I had a business trip this afternoon, so my memory is no longer
fresh, so if you expect a reply from me, you will have to wait a bit more, a
few days I think. A devil's advocate is always the best adversary, unless of
course we are on the same side there.
From: Duveyoung <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How does one decide if a person's testimony
is valid?
Anartaxius -- gunna devil-advocate on yer buns. Gunna be snarky N "the
worm turns" funzies. Just to see what I can getcha to pony up about why your
authority in these matters, well, matters.
You speak as I do when I'm really doing my mad-poet high-stepping -- dead
certain of everything -- only I do it with a jester-wearing-a-hat costume, and
you come across as professorial with a jaunty mortar board hat.
Well, listen to my screeching from the back of the room below, and let's us
just see what can be seen. Please take my attack, yes, attack, in the spirit
of those English Parliament debates where the other party yells in the most
raucous, rude, and in your face manner...only this time I'll feign some
low-life kinda-Bronx accent.....with an imagined voicing not unlike a delivery
by Groot. (But, actually I'm still angry at Curtis for ripping me apart like
this a few weeks ago...I'm just his fanboy trying to impress him.......hee hee.}
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote :
Yes, no longer mutually exclusive. I think it is basically a teaching
technique.
I think. I think. Hmmmmm. Either way, if you're using the word "I" or
"think" then, we're talking about processes of a human nervous system, and that
seems, dang it, ever so iffy -- maybe even, error prone, maybe even bullshit.
Please clear this up for us. The rest of your statement kinda depends on it.
An "I" seems to have the power to "think" -- I'm chewing on this, but it's
flavor is kinda like gum from under a seat.
As Nisargadatta said, it forces a person to look within if all they know is
thinking and doing. The 'within' really is not a separate place in the
universe,
You know it's a not separate place how? Because I amuse you? Wait....I mean:
Because YOU'RE a Nisargadatta devotee of many decades or what? Can ya scurry
up a quote for us. I ask, cuz you used the word "said." Which I take meant
"wrote via translator/transcriber of pristine merit" not "I heard him in his
original language and I know that language perfectly" or "I have studied at his
feet." See the problem here with this kind of use of words by you?
it is made to seem that way at first to break the habit of looking without.
Nisargadatta told you this? Again I ask, cuz, man, authority is dripping off
of this statement, and it's a statement that is shockingly different from
anything specific that Nisargadatta SEEMS to have said in the books that I have
read. Hmmmmm. I think we have a case of you interpreting and me interpreting,
and now I gotta ask ya why you come across as "it's so obvious" about this
thing. I'm not a smart person, but I try harder. Let us all know just what
you're saying here. Are you enlightened or what? If you're hinting at it like
this, I've got a basket of rotten veggies back here, ya know?
But then at some point you have to connect the inner and outer viewpoint that
has been constructed and consciously take down the mental and experiential
barrier that seems to exist between inner and outer.
And everyone understands exactly what your words mean because . . . ? Cuz,
hey, I don't know JACK SHIT about this "connecting" skill you're suggesting is
to be humanly used. God might be able to do that, but . . . So? What exactly
happens?
Does the ego get the two databases together and say, "Now all you fuckers
inside the skull gotta understand the outsiders are the same as you here
insiders, so leave off with that outer guys are other guys shit, and you outer
guys with all your snooty "but we're physical" shit gotta stuff that crappola
and see that you are merely reflections of the inners." Is it something like
that? Does the ego just up and finally take the reins of the whole spectrum of
experiencing and TAKE CHARGE? Where's is the volition you seem to believe can
be COMMANDEERED to do this kinda micro-neuron-level restructuring? I gotta
know, cuz that's some crazy shit -- and I'm interested.
It is curious that even after decades of meditation, some people
SOME people, eh? Meaning my decades of inquiry were for naught? I got low
esteem here, so naturally everything's my fault, so with a knee jerk like that,
I gotta push back and be brave enough to challenge you. I think you're saying
your KEN, your wisdom is deeper, more clear, more substantially integral,
whatever, so I gotta hit ya about this kind of snooty shit.
do not seem to move beyond this.
seem -- I think you meant to type "definitely are such turds they'll never make
it," right? I ask, cuz, I know I didn't make it, and so I'm wondering if it's
just me or EVERYONE ELSE at FFL that you're hinting about. You could be more
specific here.
I think that is caused by a lack of scepticism, and an inability to trust one's
own sense direction.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, your sense was what adjective again? Trustworthy? But I was
supposed to know that MY sense was inferior? Do I have this correctly? Cuz,
I'm just reading your mind here by dint of magic, channeling and projection, so
fucking help me out here.
Supposedly TM is to create field independence and self sufficiency, but these
qualities do not seem to appear in a lot of people.
Again, you're so sure we all know exactly what the field-fucking-ciency-thingy
means when you say this. What's up with this assumption? There's skills that
some folks have that help them get enlightened, and they're inherited or what?
Is this a "DNA of the pundits are superior" kinda thingy? Were you a "first
child" -- golden?
I think the belief system in the TMO is a major factor, it says these things
will happen, but it does not pointedly make it a conscious issue of what sort
of attitude the mind must have for it to be nurtured, since that attitude means
questioning the very foundation of the system of belief.
And that's beautiful............sounding. I think we see a book in the making
here, and I'm the kinda guy to encourage a fellow writer to go for it. I mean
that's hot shit man! Total rebel with a cause stuff.
If one takes the meaning of the words belief and knowledge seriously, if there
is such a thing as knowledge, then belief will have to fall by the wayside at
some point and be replaced by something more direct and substantial.
Sounds sooooo OED and lexicographicalistic, Batman! I might add a tiny
protestation here as an aside: I would contend that I have NEVER positioned
the word "awareness" as anything but a place holder -- not as a word with ANY
real world meaning.....cuz that would be tawdry.
As many people have experienced, the entire path of spiritual growth is based
on concepts that have no real practical significance or meaning once they have
achieved their purpose;
Whoa! That just went right over my head, or it was bullshit. I have been
totally changed by ALL MY LIFE EXPERIENCES. Everything counts. My studying of
the various scriptures and all the TM stuff -- changed me by dint of being real
life examples of my nervous system hard at work. Not that I'm exactly on-topic
here. What the fuck does a concept do to achieve something? I'm totally
confused about your mastery of psychology here. Are you a wizard? I ask you
openly, Sir.
they are tools, like a multi-stage rocket booster, which once they have done
the required job, are jettisoned.
Are you selling next year's techniques? You can help us? You are drenched with
spiritual authority with such a statement....or just brow beating?
Someone who wants to teach this sort of thing might have to revisit such tools,
or make up new ones, because if such a one just sits there and says 'everything
is one' or 'you are that' or some such, it is not going to be very effective.
Who teaches? Who can be taught? I think it's pretty clear that I'm not guilty
of teaching anyone here, right? I'm the guy with the jester hat. Let's see
now, who here comes off as more seriously intellectual? Hmmmm.
Who said "a concept" can have any significant power to re-program a mind? Not
me -- not like it's a pill that can be taken. Nope. It's the whole universe
afoot if you ask me. Your statement seems so very very different from infinite
correlation. If I ever wrote differently, woo boy, I take it back, because I
would guess that UNDERSTANDING something -- anything -- has pretty much zero
prognostic power. Just ask anyone who has had their chart read or believes in
crop circle messages or, hey, ask Marlon Brando. He had his asshole read in
India. So he musta found an expert what with his money and fame. I'm saying
there's no example of anyone knowing what the power of anything is -- since all
we know is so parochial and local -- not universal and cosmic.
The enlightenment success rate seems really poor, you cannot show it to
someone. It is really the realisation you made a mistake and now you have
realised what it was, but it did not change anything to fix it. A difficult
selling point. Like selling the next year's new model car, when it looks
exactly like the previous year.
Nice metaphor for the enlightenment idea: ordinary mind is the Tao.
And, done. Whew. That was a bit much more than I thought I would do. Hope it
was more of entertaining than a slog. But I was trying to land some serious
hits. I kinda wish I had held back, cuz you might be a giant or brain in a jar
with laser beams.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <noozguru@...> wrote :
Problem is for some people awarenessand consciousness are no longer mutually
exclusive. That they areseems to be splitting hairs. Like Krishnamurti I just
don't careabout these issues anymore. And furthermore I am bewildered
thatpeople who have been practicing meditation for decades have notachieved
enlightenment or "moksha" yet. Maybe there is somethingto the idea of an "old
soul?"
On 12/17/2014 11:33 AM, anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife]wrote:
I wasevaluating these statements a few months ago. All I cansay is I seem to
get them in terms of my own experience,but that does not help anyone else.
Basically justmeditating for half a century seems to be the trick.
Alsocertain specific experiences that have occurred alsohelped illuminate them
for me. Specifically thetransition from waking to deep anaesthesia to
waking,which is about as close to death one can get as far asshutdown of the
brain was one factor for me. Also thetransition from TC to waking although that
is moreerratic, and it does not happen any more for me. Anotherexperience is
the realisation that what one thinks isnot true except in a very limited and
restricted sense.
Inother words, feeling comfortable with these statementsas having an
experiential significance can only comewithin one's experience, not in the
telling of thatexperience. You cannot prove a thing.
As alsopointed out by others, translation is a factor, butbasically it is the
same old thing, whatever you call'absolute' and 'relative' specifies a
difference inexperience and the mind has to recognise thatdifference, the
relationship of the words bring tolight. It can be as simple as life and death.
Awarenessis what you have in death, but the awareness, i.e.,being, does not do
anything or is conscious of anything.Consciousness and awareness is what you
have in life.Parsing the difference goes on in the mind until you nolonger
really think of them as essentially different. Itis just an exercise in mental
clarity rather than anexercise of truth.
Truthis really local. It is the relationship between astatement and a
situation. "I have a MAD magazine in myright hand" is a true statement if you
have a copy of aMAD magazine in your right hand. But such a statementreally
does not say much about the character of theitems mentioned. It is a very
coarse approximation of aunique situation. For example, it did not
containinformation about the pigeon crapping on my head while Iwas holding the
magazine.
Tryingto apply a statement to the entire universe as a wholesimply contains no
useful content. The most generalised'true' statements are probably general
relativity andthe standard model of quantum mechanics, and they arenot entirely
general about all the universe is, theystill have local value. No one has
figured out how tocombine them into a more general statement, and we alsodo not
know if there is some unknown they cannot accountfor.
When aperson says they grasp what Nisargadatta said, what theyare really saying
is they are experiencing a certainway, and that way for them is what they would
call'truth', but it is not an expressible truth, a provabletruth, like holding
a magazine in hand, it just meansthat whatever is being experienced can be no
other wayat that moment, and that the mind is settled in theknowledge that it
cannot be any other way. Every momentis absolute.
Statementslike 'awareness is not the same as consciousness' makethe mind work,
and it is an exercise in mentalflexibility to find experiences that correspond
to theseterms, assuming such experiences are possible.Eventually, like
practising a musical instrument, likefingers, or breath, or embouchure for a
musician, themind gets a bit more flexible and responsive if you workit a
certain way for a while. Once that work is done, itcan relax because what was
previously work now canhappen automatically. Basically it breaks down
previousconditioning by replacing it with another sort ofconditioning which is
presumably less restrictive infunction.
JidduKrishnamurti said it a different way. He said 'My secretis I do not mind
what is happening'. That just meansfrom his perspective there is experience,
and that isall there is, nothing else is happening. For myself, Ifind the world
of metaphysics simply vanished asexperience clarified. It was a reality created
entirelyby the relationship of words to one another, but therewere no magazines
to hold, it was imaginary, that mentalworld of things supposedly 'beyond'.
Awakeningshows the mind there is nothing beyond what oneexperiences. The
universe becomes immanent and lean andmean, because a ton of useless mental
garbage is takendown. You can still make up stuff if you want, you justdo not
have to;it is no longer necessary to rely on a mental world ofconcepts to enjoy
life. You do not have to parseexperience to enjoy, you just have it. But you
canparse it if you want. And to do stuff you do have toparse the world
conceptually.
Ihave not had much time lately to post, I have beenworking on an electronic
form of a publication, whichmeans working with Extensible Markup Language,
andattempting to remember and relearn stuff I have notdone for several years,
and it gets harder every yearas the brain ages, so this has turned out to be
anexercise in re-establishing sufficient mental clarity to get theproject done.
If you want to dosomething, to have a beer for example, you have to
parseexperience into, not necessarily fully blown concepts,but sufficiently
differentiated enough to distinguish abar, or a can or a bottle in a
refrigerator, and soforth. I think I will now leave my computer and go makea
cup of coffee. There is also one beer in the fridge,but its cold here now. Now,
how should I dothis?...parse, parse, parse.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
Whatcan I do to test these statements?
Nisargadatta"Thescriptures say so, but I know nothing about it. Iknow myself as
I am; as I appeared or will appear isnot within my experience. It is not that I
do notremember. In fact there is nothing to remember.Reincarnation implies a
reincarnating self. There isno such thing. The bundle of memories and
hopes,called the 'I', imagines itself existingeverlastingly and creates time to
accommodate itsfalse eternity: To be, I need no past or future. Allexperience
is born of imagination; I do not imagine,so no birth or death happens to me.
Only those whothink themselves born can think themselves re-born.You are
accusing me of having been born -- I pleadnot guilty!""Byits very nature the
mind is outward turned; italways tends to seek for the source of things
amongthe things themselves; to be told to look for thesource within, is, in a
way, the beginning of a newlife. Awareness takes the place of consciousness;
inconsciousness there is the 'I', who is consciouswhile awareness is undivided;
awareness is aware ofitself. The 'I am' is a thought, while awareness isnot a
thought, there is no 'I am aware' inawareness. Consciousness is an attribute
whileawareness is not; one can be aware of beingconscious, but not conscious of
awareness. God isthe totality of consciousness, but awareness isbeyond all --
being as well as not-being."
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
What can Ido to test these statements?
Nisargadatta"Thescriptures say so, but I know nothing about it. Iknow myself as
I am; as I appeared or will appear isnot within my experience. It is not that I
do notremember. In fact there is nothing to remember.Reincarnation implies a
reincarnating self. There isno such thing. The bundle of memories and
hopes,called the 'I', imagines itself existingeverlastingly and creates time to
accommodate itsfalse eternity: To be, I need no past or future. Allexperience
is born of imagination; I do not imagine,so no birth or death happens to me.
Only those whothink themselves born can think themselves re-born.You are
accusing me of having been born -- I pleadnot guilty!""By its verynature the
mind is outward turned; it always tendsto seek for the source of things among
the thingsthemselves; to be told to look for the sourcewithin, is, in a way,
the beginning of a new life.Awareness takes the place of consciousness;
inconsciousness there is the 'I', who is consciouswhile awareness is undivided;
awareness is aware ofitself. The 'I am' is a thought, while awareness isnot a
thought, there is no 'I am aware' inawareness. Consciousness is an attribute
whileawareness is not; one can be aware of beingconscious, but not conscious of
awareness. God isthe totality of consciousness, but awareness isbeyond all --
being as well as not-being."
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