---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emily.mae50@...> wrote :
Yes, interesting. I remember years ago reading something of this guy and wondering how one could be an "enlightened drunk." I figured his followers were deluded. I have given this some thought over the last day or so and have to conclude that one can not be anything but dis- eased, troubled, deeply in need on some essential level to be a chronic alcoholic. No way could/should "realization" or "awakening" or "God consciousness" coexist with the need to poison your body with alcohol and to inebriate your mind at the same time. It doesn't compute. Brilliant? Maybe. Charismatic? Possible. Some sort of walking/talking deity? Nope. I saw a show on WS Merwin last year, on his life in Hawaii, his role as a "poet activist", and what he has done with his "property" Poetry in the Palms http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704604704576220602720997650 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704604704576220602720997650 Poetry in the Palms http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704604704576220602720997650 The remoteness of W.S. Merwin's Maui home is one of its appeals to the current U.S. poet laureate, whose work reflects his commitment to environmentalism a... View on www.wsj.com http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704604704576220602720997650 Preview by Yahoo Merwin was once asked what social role a poet plays—if any—in America. He commented: “I think there’s a kind of desperate hope built into poetry now that one really wants, hopelessly, to save the world. One is trying to say everything that can be said for the things that one loves while there’s still time. I think that’s a social role, don’t you? ... We keep expressing our anger and our love, and we hope, hopelessly perhaps, that it will have some effect. But I certainly have moved beyond the despair, or the searing, dumb vision that I felt after writing The Lice; one can’t live only in despair and anger without eventually destroying the thing one is angry in defense of. The world is still here, and there are aspects of human life that are not purely destructive, and there is a need to pay attention to the things around us while they are still around us. And you know, in a way, if you don’t pay that attention, the anger is just bitterness.” ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emily.mae50@...> wrote : Just curiously, (I have no background in any of this), does the "True Self" equate with the "Soul"? (from which, in certain texts, God within from which "nothing can be taken away or added to?") Until someone decides to answer this question (or not) here is some interesting reading for you: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.html http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.html ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <s3raphita@...> wrote : Re "Chogyam Trungpa commented . . . our common human nature renders us essentially flawed": Chögyam Trungpa was too much a drunk, aggressive lech for my taste. All that “crazy wisdom” master crap cuts no ice with me. I think those who argue we are fallen creatures (western tradition) or essentially ignorant (eastern) are pointing to something true and vitally important. Those who think we can simply remake ourselves as we see fit are precisely those who pave the way for the gulag. Re "BTW, you never deigned to answer: How do you know you are not enlightened?": My True Self - "my" I - is enlightened. But at a lower level my everyday self which takes slight at a perceived insult, fears death, craves more and more experience is not and cannot be enlightened. You have to distinguish between the two levels. As you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear it is wasted effort and futile regret to kick yourself for the failure of your lower self to rise to the level of the True Self. Your True Self is universal not particular, transcendent not immanent, etc. That's why the "common experience of self-judgment and self-hatred that will arise for people when they're doing spiritual practice" was never an issue for me. Such people have simply misunderstood the hierarchy I'm referring to. George Harrison is a case in point. He spent his last years struggling between his (lower self's) desire to play the role of a spiritual type - doing daily meditation, etc. - and his (lower self's) desire for cocaine and sex. The lower self's struggle is fruitless as it will always remain "lower". To try and take sides in that conflict only strengthens each opponent and gets you nowhere. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emptybill@...> wrote : Re "in Western culture there’s a common experience of self-judgment and self-hatred that will arise for people when they’re doing spiritual practice—an unworthiness that will arise": That wouldn't be my problem! Sounds like a version of that self-loathing that infects those attracted to various brands of political correctness. Chogyam Trungpa commented upon this after studying Western psychology at Oxford. He pointed out the insidious nature of the underlying metaview of human nature in EuroAmerican culture. He called it the broken vase prototype ... i.e. our common human nature renders us essentially flawed as persons. That means we view ourselves as transgressive by our nature rather than by our enactment of particular acts. Over the years, I have found this divide between these fundamental views reinforced by representatives of our particular cultures and lineages. Read it and sleep or read it and weep. BTW, you never deigned to answer: How do you know you are not enlightened? How could you possibly know? The Lice; one can’t live only in despair and anger without eventually destroying the thing one is angry in defense of. The world is still here, and there are aspects of human life that are not purely destructive, and there is a need to pay attention to the things around us while they are still around us. And you know, in a way, if you don’t pay that attention, the anger is just bitterness.” ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emily.mae50@...> wrote : Just curiously, (I have no background in any of this), does the "True Self" equate with the "Soul"? (from which, in certain texts, God within from which "nothing can be taken away or added to?") Until someone decides to answer this question (or not) here is some interesting reading for you: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.html http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.html ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <s3raphita@...> wrote : Re "Chogyam Trungpa commented . . . our common human nature renders us essentially flawed": Chögyam Trungpa was too much a drunk, aggressive lech for my taste. All that “crazy wisdom” master crap cuts no ice with me. I think those who argue we are fallen creatures (western tradition) or essentially ignorant (eastern) are pointing to something true and vitally important. Those who think we can simply remake ourselves as we see fit are precisely those who pave the way for the gulag. Re "BTW, you never deigned to answer: How do you know you are not enlightened?": My True Self - "my" I - is enlightened. But at a lower level my everyday self which takes slight at a perceived insult, fears death, craves more and more experience is not and cannot be enlightened. You have to distinguish between the two levels. As you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear it is wasted effort and futile regret to kick yourself for the failure of your lower self to rise to the level of the True Self. Your True Self is universal not particular, transcendent not immanent, etc. That's why the "common experience of self-judgment and self-hatred that will arise for people when they're doing spiritual practice" was never an issue for me. Such people have simply misunderstood the hierarchy I'm referring to. George Harrison is a case in point. He spent his last years struggling between his (lower self's) desire to play the role of a spiritual type - doing daily meditation, etc. - and his (lower self's) desire for cocaine and sex. The lower self's struggle is fruitless as it will always remain "lower". To try and take sides in that conflict only strengthens each opponent and gets you nowhere. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emptybill@...> wrote : Re "in Western culture there’s a common experience of self-judgment and self-hatred that will arise for people when they’re doing spiritual practice—an unworthiness that will arise": That wouldn't be my problem! Sounds like a version of that self-loathing that infects those attracted to various brands of political correctness. Chogyam Trungpa commented upon this after studying Western psychology at Oxford. He pointed out the insidious nature of the underlying metaview of human nature in EuroAmerican culture. He called it the broken vase prototype ... i.e. our common human nature renders us essentially flawed as persons. That means we view ourselves as transgressive by our nature rather than by our enactment of particular acts. Over the years, I have found this divide between these fundamental views reinforced by representatives of our particular cultures and lineages. Read it and sleep or read it and weep. BTW, you never deigned to answer: How do you know you are not enlightened? How could you possibly know?
