--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- jim_flanegin wrote: > > > > > > enlightenment does not adhere > > > to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. > > > > I've been given to understand that enlightenment > > changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to > > another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists > > disagree with Hindus on key points, and when > > their adherents attain end states they call awakening > > or enlightenment, the attainees describe their > > experiences differently from one another but > > consistent with their traditions.
Even amongs Hindus. Non-dual and dualist advaita traditions. Vaishnavas -- tending to always have some distinction between themselves and Godhead -- even in the attainment of the highest lokas, vs. non-dualist shaivites. And Buddists are hardly one school. Theravada, Mahayana, Tibetian. And great differences in schools of understanding and views even within these great rivers of buddhism. And Islam. Shunni, Shi-ite, Sufi? And the jains. And the farsi zoriasterists of bombay. And so many christian sects and understandings of "perfection". How many extinct traditions over the last 10,000 or more years. Far more than exist today, I would venture. To say that all enlightenement tradions are the same must be from someone with their head in the sand. (or other places the sun don't shine.) > > That is my experience as well. It's as if the myth > of enlightenment that members of a tradition grew > up with becomes by default the language they use > to express the inexpressible. > > > Native Americans have no such states in their > > traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not > > something that all traditions recognize. > > I have spent time with Yaqui shamans and read a > bit of Native American traditions, and I have to > agree with you. The quest for power, yes. The > quest for altered states of consciousness, yes. > The quest for an impeccable life, yes. But it's > tough to find an analogue for enlightenment as > we know it from Eastern traditions. > > > View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master > > as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept > > determines percept. > > I have to agree. That which one expects seems to > color awakening into the unexpected. The experience > it what it is, but when it comes to describing or > interpreting it, one's previously-established > view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) > seems to become the default. > > > I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. > > I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. > > I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with > > the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to > > any tradition. > > I don't feel any cognitive dissonance, but that > may be because I've had occasional flashes of > enlightened states, *and* I've had decades of > indoctrination into trying to anticipate and > explain such experiences. The anticipation was > fruitless; I was waiting for what was already > present. And all of the explanations fell flat, > because they didn't do justice to the experience. > Close, but no cigar. > > Still, when you're discussing cigars, you need a > language to express the differences between a > true Havana and a cheap Baltimore Stogie. Even > though *no one* you speak to will ever under- > stand the difference until they've fired up > both. :-) > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
