--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Richard, > > I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about > miracles much. They talk about love. They feel uncomfortable with > people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in >> God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at > you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the > time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, > you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of > our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have > a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google > ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague > "great spirit" and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to > do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, > religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about > miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West. > > Thanks for asking. Any insight is appreciated.
More West than East. I think the ratioanlist movement hit the west harder than India (you have never been there I guess). In India if you believe in God, you pretty much believe in miracles. If you don't believe in divine intervention (which is sort of always outside of the scientific paradigma), what's the point? Any great saint will be judged according to if he can perform miracles. Look at Shirdi Sai Baba, the greatest and best known of all the Gurus's. His spiritual career started with a miracle (he transformed water inro oil). No temple, where not miracles are attributed to. So if you talk about 'mainstream religious types', you must be talking about the ones you know - that is in the west, maybe in TV - certainly not in rural India. Each time I come to India I hear stories of mirales. Me: I only spent a short time in India with MMY. I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you mean the "empirical" movement hit the West harder and I agree that it hit there harder, first. India is catching up fast now. Rural India is as full of miracle stories as rural Mexico. And because India has such a large superstitious rural population it is easy to forget the middle class types who view miracle stories with the same suspicion many Westerners do. I have heard the same skepticism of Sai Baba's tricks from Indians. They have the perspective that miracles may be possible but they are skeptical of people cashing in on these claims. Judging all Indian culture by what uneducated Indians believe doesn't do the whole range of Indian perspectives justice. I also detect a wry humor about all these claims from Middle Class Indians. Most of them have seen more spiritual scams in their youth then we will in our lifetime. I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. Me: I caught a late plane once. If you fly a lot this will happen. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Me: It happens all the time. How come miracle stories don't involve the curing of cancer or AIDS? Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) Me: I'm not sure what is being claimed here. When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. Me: Nicely put. There are conditions under which you could test such a physical claim. I'll be no one is jumping in to impose the kind of test conditions one would need. It would cause a riot. I agree with your point about how superstitious many Indians are. I don't think this is representative of the most well educated Indians. In my short time in India I was exposed to plenty of Indians who viewed the whole "miracle yogi cashing in on Western dollars" in a cynical way. At the time I was offended at their lack of spiritual insight. Now I see things differently. I also agree with your correction of my use of "mainstream religious types". I may mean moderately religious people. I've met plenty of Indians whose Grama is very religious and they just go through the motions to appease the matriarch. There is a lot of lip service paid to miracles but when it comes to them parting with their own money they get skeptical fast. We have a pretty big Indian population here in D.C. It seems like there is a natural skepticism among business or scientifically trained Indians concerning miracles and famous yogis with western disciples. Even when they are practicing Hindus, they often view guys like MMY like I view Benny Hinn. So I think there is a range of perspectives on how they view miracle claims by people cashing in on them. Indian culture has a rich history in wisdom about human nature in all of its pros and cons. Reading their scriptures in a secular light is another way to enjoy their insights. Thanks for joining in I appreciate your perspective. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > Richard, > > > > I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about > > miracles much. They talk about love. They feel uncomfortable with > > people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in > > God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at > > you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the > > time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, > > you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of > > our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have > > a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google > > ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague > > "great spirit" and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to > > do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, > > religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about > > miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West. > > > > Thanks for asking. Any insight is appreciated. > > More West than East. I think the ratioanlist movement hit the west > harder than India (you have never been there I guess). In India if you > believe in God, you pretty much believe in miracles. If you don't > believe in divine intervention (which is sort of always outside of the > scientific paradigma), what's the point? Any great saint will be > judged according to if he can perform miracles. Look at Shirdi Sai > Baba, the greatest and best known of all the Gurus's. His spiritual > career started with a miracle (he transformed water inro oil). No > temple, where not miracles are attributed to. > > So if you talk about 'mainstream religious types', you must be talking > about the ones you know - that is in the west, maybe in TV - certainly > not in rural India. Each time I come to India I hear stories of mirales. > > I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the > west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this > case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a > plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the > plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). > Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. (He > also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, > announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people > and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out > and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still > feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this > time. Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where > I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who > had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a > tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as > he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) > > When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri > Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. > Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake > was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything > (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any > of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it > tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely > interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with > a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. >
