On 26 Mar 2004 at 23:59, Mark D Lew wrote: > On Mar 26, 2004, at 12:36 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > Here's the problem: > > > > If layer 2 is a chord instead of a single note, the spacing is > > completely wrong -- the layer 1 note is spaced by itself and the > > layer 2 chord is spaced way out to the right, as though the two > > didn't occur in the same metric position. [...] > > > Can anyone confirm this? > > Yes. That matches experience in Fin Mac 2k2. I don't remember this > ever working perfectly. In the old days, Finale didn't try to fix > spacing for seconds in separate layers at all, so that the noteheads > were just on top of each other. Later, spacing for seconds was added, > whereupon it gets it right some of the time but often gets confused by > more complicated situations.
I didn't use layers for this in the past, but used voice 1 and voice 2. I'm really not sure why I switched over, since I'm not really seeing any great advantage to it at this point now that I'm discovering the things that don't work right. > In the given example, I assume the problem is that Finale has an > algorithm associated with spacing a second, and it's only smart enough > to spot a second when it's one note in each layer. Yes, apparently. But it's spotting *something* and I don't quite understand why it thinks what it's seeing is the right thing to do -- I can't conceive of circumstances where the spacing it provides would ever be correct, accidentals or dots notwithstanding. > > I'm working on piano music and this kind of thing is quite common, > > and it's causing me to do far more manual editing than I ever had to > > do in the past, and I'm having to move the notes, the accidentals > > *and* the dots. > > Do you have automatic music spacing turned on? . . . Nope. I tried that for the first few months I used WinFin2K3, but then turned it off and haven't missed it. > . . . If not, it seems to me > you shouldn't ever have to move the dot. In the procedure you spelled > out, the dot got moved only because you spaced it once and Finale > figured it right, then you added and spaced again and Finale got it > wrong. Well, the chord in layer 2 gets moved to the right so as not to collide with the note in layer 1, but there are no adjustments to horizontal spacing of dots or accidentals in either layer. The major problem is that you have to get rid of the extra space allocated in the measure, and the only real way to do that is to remove the chord notes, space, and then add the real notes back, since the only alternative is adjusting the beat chart manually, which is more of a pain than deleting and re-entering the notes. > Revisiting the measure and applying spacing an additional time gives > Finale a chance to compound it's error. (If you have dotted notes in > separate layers a second apart, and you repeatedly swap layers, > respacing after each swap, the notes and dots will continue to move > farther and farther to the right.) Well, at least I hadn't encountered *that*. > Better is to enter all the music first and then apply spacing just > once. That way either it will get it right or it won't. If it doesn't > all you have to move is the note. No, you have to move the note, then move the accidentals and the dots. But removing the chord note and spacing then gets it right, so you can add back the chord notes and it comes out all right. The only exception to that might be accidentals on the deleted chord notes, but those can be easily adjusted. > Accidentals are a separate matter. I've found that they frequently > don't place where I want them even on a one-layer chord. (Even flats > on a sixth are too far apart for my taste.) I've got some places in the piece I finished Thursday that have some really weird accidental spacing. In one, a passage of 16th-note arpeggios, the sharp is two far to the left from the notehead, and bumps up against the 16th to the left. But there's not enough room between the two 16ths to fit the sharp (so I can't just nudge it to the right), so I have to adjust the beat chart. I don't remember ever having to adjust beat charts for that kind of situation (and, yes, I tried spacing metatool 3 and then 4 with "CLEAR" spacing turned on, and it didn't fix it). > I concur with everyone here that the spacing algorithm for multi-layer > chords with dots has room for improvement. I guess I'm just used to > it. I tend to take it for granted that in dense piano music with > multiple layers I'm going to have to move some notes around > horizontally. If there's three layers and/or unisons it gets even > more hairy, and I never expect Finale to space it right. OK, I guess the reason I didn't have a problem in the past was because of the fact that I didn't use layers for this. > By the way, in case you don't already know, Finale will always push > the note in the higher-numbered layer to the right, regardless of > which note is higher on the staff or which way the stems are going. > It's helpful to know that sometimes. There are times when I choose my > layers assignments specifically so that Finale will space it correctly > without me having to go back and revisit. I'm having fits with putting the stems-up notes in layer 1, as my musical sense tells me that the lower notes should be in layer 1. But I'm finally getting used to thinking about it Finale's way instead of thinking about it as music. This is another frustrating place where Finale is anti-musical and behaves too much like a computer program. I know it's not possible to get the musical idea right all the time (it would require extremely sophisticated artificial intelligence to do so), but it's a constant frustration to me to have to think non-musically. Maybe that's testimony to how musical most of Finale happens to be, that the points where it's not annoy me so much. -- David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
