[humor] OK, there seems to be some offense here that I called the thing an octave key. Perhaps this is because my academic degrees are in Finance and Foreign Languages rather than music. In recognition of my lack of music training (my only lessons were at a major conservatory with a distinguished professor) I will henceforth refer to the object in dispute here as "the valve I push down when I am playing notes from f in the bass staff down to b in the bass staff and I want to blow differently (which puts me on a lower member of the overtone series) and get the note an octave lower." [/humor]
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. On May 11, 2010, at 8:40 AM, "Christopher Smith" <christopher.sm...@videotron.ca > wrote: > Sorry you only know that. 8-) > > Yes, some of the fingerings are similar, as if it was an octave key. > But get off that partial and you will have some surprises. > > It's an amusing and useful coincidence (actually, probably by > design!) that you mention, but make no mistake, it's NOT an octave > key! It drops the instrument by a perfect 4th. Maybe your Williams > instrument plays better in tune than my Boosey does, but I find I > need all kinds of alternate fingerings, some involving the 4th valve, > to get some notes in tune. For example, all my second-space Cs are > better in tune with 4 than with 1-3, and my B's are better as 2-4 > than 1-2-3. > > Christopher > > > On Tue May 11, at TuesdayMay 11 12:38 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: > >> Sir, >> I only know this: >> When I step on stage to play Eb in the bass staff, I press the first >> valve on my Willson 2905 4-valve compensating euphonium. >> If I wish to play the Eb an octave lower, I press 1and 4. >> I play D in the bass staff by pressing 1 and 2. >> If I then wish to play the D an octave lower, I press 1, 2, and 4. >> I play Db in the bass staff by pressing 2 and 3. >> should I dare to play the Db an octave lower, I press 2, 3, and 4. >> At times I play C in the bass staff by pressing 1 and 3. >> Should I attempt to play the C an octave lower, I press 1, 3, and 4. >> (does there seem to be a pattern here?) >> Finally, there are rare occasions when I play B in the bass staff by >> pressing 1, 2, and 3. >> Should I desire to produce the B an octave lower, I press 1, 2, 3, >> and >> 4 (and lip it down). >> The amazing thing is-I continue to get paid for this despite my >> ignorance...and I actually get called back! >> >> Imagine what I'd be if I knew anything!! ;-) >> >> Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. >> >> On May 10, 2010, at 11:30 PM, "Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre" >> <yorkmaster...@yahoo.com >>> wrote: >> >>> Sad that you persist, because you reveal ignorance about the partial >>> system of brass instruments. Your upper reference notes are played >>> as third partials. Your lower reference notes are played as second >>> partials. >>> >>> There is a fifth between the 2nd and 3rd partials. The 4th valve is >>> one third of the (theoretical) length of the open bugle and lowers >>> the instrument the interval of a fourth. The sum of a fifth and a >>> fourth happens to be an octave but that doesn’t make the 4th val >>> ve a >>> n octave valve. The visual proof is, that an octave valve would have >>> to be as long as the open bugle. It isn’t so. >>> >>> Klaus >>> >>> --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> >>>> Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba Transposition >>>> To: "finale@shsu.edu" <finale@shsu.edu> >>>> Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 5:02 AM >>>> To me it is an octave key in that low >>>> register. >>>> Look at the fingering: >>>> Eb 1 low eb 1-4 >>>> d 1-2 low d 1-2-4 >>>> Db 2-3 low db 2-3-4 >>>> c 1-3 low c 1-3-4 >>>> B 1-2-3 low b 1-2-3-4 >>>> So from eb down, pressing 4 lowers the pitch an octave >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. >>>> >>>> On May 10, 2010, at 10:40 PM, "Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre" >>>> <yorkmaster...@yahoo.com >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Franco-Flemish band tradition writes for Eb and >>>> BBb tubas and >>>>> for euphonium/bass trombone in transposed bass clef. >>>>> >>>>> On compensating low brasses the 4th valve is not an >>>> octave key. It >>>>> is a fourth valve, as in the interval of a fourth. >>>> Like with a >>>>> compensating horn the 4th valve loop is rerouted >>>> through the valves, >>>>> and compensating loops are added to improve the >>>> pitch. >>>>> >>>>> The pitches of the two notes right above the open >>>> pedal note are >>>>> sharp on compensating instruments unless one has a >>>> main tuning slide >>>>> trigger like I have had mounted on my YEP-641 comp >>>> euphonium or a >>>>> push rod like on my Marzan comp euph. Hirsbrunner and >>>> Miraphone have >>>>> issued models with triggers on the valve slides. >>>>> >>>>> For technical reasons it is very complicated to apply >>>> triggers to >>>>> compensating tubas, so I don’t have triggers on my >>>> compers in F, Eb, >>>>> and BBb. The compensating F tubas are extremely >>>> rare and were only >>>>> made in 1923, 1961 and a some point of time before >>>> 2000. My sample i >>>>> s from 1923 and it was one of these Vaughan Williams >>>> wrote his conce >>>>> rt for. There also are a few 3 valve compensating >>>> tubas in CC, but I >>>>> haven’t come by one yet. >>>>> >>>>> Klaus >>>>> >>>>> --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba >>>> Transposition >>>>>> To: "finale@shsu.edu" >>>> <finale@shsu.edu> >>>>>> Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 3:38 AM >>>>>> More tuba trivia: >>>>>> A four-valve non-compensating tuba is not fully >>>> chromatic >>>>>> in the low >>>>>> register. >>>>>> With an Eb tuba, 4 valves, no compensating, low a >>>> is 2-4, >>>>>> ab is 1-4, g >>>>>> is 2-3-4, gb is 1-3-4 (and sharp), f is 1-2-3-4 >>>> and very >>>>>> sharp and low >>>>>> e natural doesn't exist. For a BBb tuba with 4 >>>> valves, move >>>>>> everything >>>>>> down a fourth. >>>>>> With 4 valves and the automatic compensating >>>> system, tubas >>>>>> are fully >>>>>> chromatic down to the pedal note and the 4th valve >>>> is an >>>>>> octave key. >>>>>> So with the compensator, on an Eb tuba, low a >>>> natural is >>>>>> 2-4, ab >>>>>> is1-4, g is 1-2-4, gb is 2-3-4, f is 1-3-4, and >>>> low e >>>>>> natural is >>>>>> 1-2-3-4 and still a bit sharp. Again, for BBb >>>> tubas with 4 >>>>>> valves and >>>>>> compensation, move everything down a fourth. >>>>>> In British brass bands, all the tubas and >>>> euphoniums are >>>>>> four-valves >>>>>> with the compensating system. >>>>>> In your case, it depends upon the band. >>>>>> The compensating 4-valve tuba in BBb weighs as >>>> much as a >>>>>> Citroen. >>>>>> I could also say it sounds like one but I won't. >>>>>> Right now I am going to pick up my compensating >>>> four-valve >>>>>> euphonium >>>>>> and practice it instead of posting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the >>>> typos. >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 10, 2010, at 9:20 PM, "John Howell" <john.how...@vt.edu> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> At 5:15 PM -0700 5/10/10, Ryan wrote: >>>>>>>> When a writing for tuba, the part should >>>> be >>>>>> written at sounding >>>>>>>> (concert) >>>>>>>> pitch, correct? If the performer is using >>>> an Eb >>>>>> tuba, they don't >>>>>>>> need a >>>>>>>> transposed part, do they? >>>>>>>> Here's the situation, a group in France >>>> wants some >>>>>> of my band music. >>>>>>>> However, they use Eb horns and Eb tubas. >>>> No >>>>>> problem to transpose >>>>>>>> the horn >>>>>>>> parts for them, but I thought that Eb >>>> Tubists read >>>>>> concert pitch >>>>>>>> parts and >>>>>>>> just learn different fingerings for the >>>> notes. Any >>>>>> low notes that >>>>>>>> are out of >>>>>>>> range (Ab and below) are automatically >>>> played an >>>>>> octave higher. >>>>>>>> Perhaps in France the current practice is >>>>>> different? Would the >>>>>>>> transposition >>>>>>>> be similar to that of the Bari Sax? >>>>>>>> It's a community group and I don't think >>>> the >>>>>> volunteer person (the >>>>>>>> "librarian," I think) I'm dealing with is >>>>>> particularly musically >>>>>>>> inclined. >>>>>>>> Also, I'm sure that some things are >>>> getting lost >>>>>> in translation. >>>>>>>> Anyone have any idea what they're looking >>>> for? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are questions you need to ask, or else >>>> produce >>>>>> alternate parts >>>>>>> for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Orchestral and band tubas in the U.S. all read >>>> from >>>>>> bass clef at >>>>>>> concert pitch, yes. British brass band >>>> tubas, >>>>>> however, read from >>>>>>> transposed parts in TREBLE CLEF. A >>>> French band >>>>>> could need either >>>>>>> kind of part; it isn't possible to guess in >>>>>> advance. And yes, it >>>>>>> would similar to a bari sax transposed part. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As to the low range, it depends entirely on >>>> whether >>>>>> the Eb tubas are >>>>>>> 3-valve or 4-valve. And you can't guess >>>> that >>>>>> without asking, either. >>>>>>> With a 3-valve Eb tuba A natural is the lowest >>>> clear >>>>>> note, but notes >>>>>>> below that, down to the pedal Eb, can be >>>> forced by an >>>>>> experienced >>>>>>> player--not fun and not a great sound. >>>> With a >>>>>> 4-valve Eb that range >>>>>>> is filled in and possible, but it's getting >>>> pretty low >>>>>> for an Eb bass >>>>>>> as opposed to a BBb contrabass. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John > > > _______________________________________________ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
