It's not offense. It's just that we want to avoid confusing non-
tubists at all costs. We know what THAT can lead to...
Christopher
On Tue May 11, at TuesdayMay 11 9:20 AM, Williams, Jim wrote:
[humor] OK, there seems to be some offense here that I called the
thing an octave key. Perhaps this is because my academic degrees are
in Finance and Foreign Languages rather than music.
In recognition of my lack of music training (my only lessons were at a
major conservatory with a distinguished professor) I will henceforth
refer to the object in dispute here as "the valve I push down when I
am playing notes from f in the bass staff down to b in the bass staff
and I want to blow differently (which puts me on a lower member of the
overtone series) and get the note an octave lower." [/humor]
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos.
On May 11, 2010, at 8:40 AM, "Christopher Smith"
<christopher.sm...@videotron.ca
wrote:
Sorry you only know that. 8-)
Yes, some of the fingerings are similar, as if it was an octave key.
But get off that partial and you will have some surprises.
It's an amusing and useful coincidence (actually, probably by
design!) that you mention, but make no mistake, it's NOT an octave
key! It drops the instrument by a perfect 4th. Maybe your Williams
instrument plays better in tune than my Boosey does, but I find I
need all kinds of alternate fingerings, some involving the 4th valve,
to get some notes in tune. For example, all my second-space Cs are
better in tune with 4 than with 1-3, and my B's are better as 2-4
than 1-2-3.
Christopher
On Tue May 11, at TuesdayMay 11 12:38 AM, Williams, Jim wrote:
Sir,
I only know this:
When I step on stage to play Eb in the bass staff, I press the first
valve on my Willson 2905 4-valve compensating euphonium.
If I wish to play the Eb an octave lower, I press 1and 4.
I play D in the bass staff by pressing 1 and 2.
If I then wish to play the D an octave lower, I press 1, 2, and 4.
I play Db in the bass staff by pressing 2 and 3.
should I dare to play the Db an octave lower, I press 2, 3, and 4.
At times I play C in the bass staff by pressing 1 and 3.
Should I attempt to play the C an octave lower, I press 1, 3, and 4.
(does there seem to be a pattern here?)
Finally, there are rare occasions when I play B in the bass staff by
pressing 1, 2, and 3.
Should I desire to produce the B an octave lower, I press 1, 2, 3,
and
4 (and lip it down).
The amazing thing is-I continue to get paid for this despite my
ignorance...and I actually get called back!
Imagine what I'd be if I knew anything!! ;-)
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos.
On May 10, 2010, at 11:30 PM, "Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre"
<yorkmaster...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Sad that you persist, because you reveal ignorance about the
partial
system of brass instruments. Your upper reference notes are played
as third partials. Your lower reference notes are played as second
partials.
There is a fifth between the 2nd and 3rd partials. The 4th valve is
one third of the (theoretical) length of the open bugle and lowers
the instrument the interval of a fourth. The sum of a fifth and a
fourth happens to be an octave but that doesn’t make the 4th val
ve a
n octave valve. The visual proof is, that an octave valve would
have
to be as long as the open bugle. It isn’t so.
Klaus
--- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu>
wrote:
From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu>
Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba Transposition
To: "finale@shsu.edu" <finale@shsu.edu>
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 5:02 AM
To me it is an octave key in that low
register.
Look at the fingering:
Eb 1 low eb 1-4
d 1-2 low d 1-2-4
Db 2-3 low db 2-3-4
c 1-3 low c 1-3-4
B 1-2-3 low b 1-2-3-4
So from eb down, pressing 4 lowers the pitch an octave
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos.
On May 10, 2010, at 10:40 PM, "Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre"
<yorkmaster...@yahoo.com
wrote:
The Franco-Flemish band tradition writes for Eb and
BBb tubas and
for euphonium/bass trombone in transposed bass clef.
On compensating low brasses the 4th valve is not an
octave key. It
is a fourth valve, as in the interval of a fourth.
Like with a
compensating horn the 4th valve loop is rerouted
through the valves,
and compensating loops are added to improve the
pitch.
The pitches of the two notes right above the open
pedal note are
sharp on compensating instruments unless one has a
main tuning slide
trigger like I have had mounted on my YEP-641 comp
euphonium or a
push rod like on my Marzan comp euph. Hirsbrunner and
Miraphone have
issued models with triggers on the valve slides.
For technical reasons it is very complicated to apply
triggers to
compensating tubas, so I don’t have triggers on my
compers in F, Eb,
and BBb. The compensating F tubas are extremely
rare and were only
made in 1923, 1961 and a some point of time before
2000. My sample i
s from 1923 and it was one of these Vaughan Williams
wrote his conce
rt for. There also are a few 3 valve compensating
tubas in CC, but I
haven’t come by one yet.
Klaus
--- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim
<jwilli...@franklincollege.edu>
wrote:
From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu>
Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba
Transposition
To: "finale@shsu.edu"
<finale@shsu.edu>
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 3:38 AM
More tuba trivia:
A four-valve non-compensating tuba is not fully
chromatic
in the low
register.
With an Eb tuba, 4 valves, no compensating, low a
is 2-4,
ab is 1-4, g
is 2-3-4, gb is 1-3-4 (and sharp), f is 1-2-3-4
and very
sharp and low
e natural doesn't exist. For a BBb tuba with 4
valves, move
everything
down a fourth.
With 4 valves and the automatic compensating
system, tubas
are fully
chromatic down to the pedal note and the 4th valve
is an
octave key.
So with the compensator, on an Eb tuba, low a
natural is
2-4, ab
is1-4, g is 1-2-4, gb is 2-3-4, f is 1-3-4, and
low e
natural is
1-2-3-4 and still a bit sharp. Again, for BBb
tubas with 4
valves and
compensation, move everything down a fourth.
In British brass bands, all the tubas and
euphoniums are
four-valves
with the compensating system.
In your case, it depends upon the band.
The compensating 4-valve tuba in BBb weighs as
much as a
Citroen.
I could also say it sounds like one but I won't.
Right now I am going to pick up my compensating
four-valve
euphonium
and practice it instead of posting.
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the
typos.
On May 10, 2010, at 9:20 PM, "John Howell" <john.how...@vt.edu>
wrote:
At 5:15 PM -0700 5/10/10, Ryan wrote:
When a writing for tuba, the part should
be
written at sounding
(concert)
pitch, correct? If the performer is using
an Eb
tuba, they don't
need a
transposed part, do they?
Here's the situation, a group in France
wants some
of my band music.
However, they use Eb horns and Eb tubas.
No
problem to transpose
the horn
parts for them, but I thought that Eb
Tubists read
concert pitch
parts and
just learn different fingerings for the
notes. Any
low notes that
are out of
range (Ab and below) are automatically
played an
octave higher.
Perhaps in France the current practice is
different? Would the
transposition
be similar to that of the Bari Sax?
It's a community group and I don't think
the
volunteer person (the
"librarian," I think) I'm dealing with is
particularly musically
inclined.
Also, I'm sure that some things are
getting lost
in translation.
Anyone have any idea what they're looking
for?
There are questions you need to ask, or else
produce
alternate parts
for.
Orchestral and band tubas in the U.S. all read
from
bass clef at
concert pitch, yes. British brass band
tubas,
however, read from
transposed parts in TREBLE CLEF. A
French band
could need either
kind of part; it isn't possible to guess in
advance. And yes, it
would similar to a bari sax transposed part.
As to the low range, it depends entirely on
whether
the Eb tubas are
3-valve or 4-valve. And you can't guess
that
without asking, either.
With a 3-valve Eb tuba A natural is the lowest
clear
note, but notes
below that, down to the pedal Eb, can be
forced by an
experienced
player--not fun and not a great sound.
With a
4-valve Eb that range
is filled in and possible, but it's getting
pretty low
for an Eb bass
as opposed to a BBb contrabass.
John
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