I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were published with an open score with bass clef for tenors. I said I remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.
1) I am a terrible pianist. I have certainly had plenty of years experience hearing a conventional choral score in my head, but playing it with my own two stupid hands (it IS my hands' fault, right?) is another story. These pieces were easier for me to play - but see point two for more reasons. 2) These pieces were easy and mellow, and had particularly low tenor parts - like fourth line F up to middle C (bass clef, remember) - with a lot of Gs on C and G chords (man, that sounds boring - but they were pretty good). Which was good for my church choir at the time, which had a couple of baritones shoring up the tenor section. Would not be good for my current choir, which has a good tenor section made up of real tenors and a couple of women who never came to terms with their head voice. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Steve Parker <st...@pinkrat.co.uk> wrote: > With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect. > It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef > to a treble clef. > Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is > difficult to justify rationally. > > As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in > any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including > transpositions and octave displacements. > These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff. > > Steve P. > > On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote: > >> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And, >> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and >> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of >> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like? >> >> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second. I mentioned >> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe. As I recall, the 2nd trombone >> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G. >> For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass >> clef! Ridiculous! Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you >> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every >> case, no matter what the range). The next week we may play the same >> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass >> clef - absurd! But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's >> our job. >> >> Musicians have to read the music that is there. Composers and arrangers can >> write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you >> write to their standards. If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you >> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time. If you sell more than >> the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start >> complaining. >> >> Raymond Horton >> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra >> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC >> Composer, Arranger >> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan < >> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've >>> used and seen. >>> >>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors, >>> I simply find it impractical. >>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines >>> (pianists, flutists, violinists). Don't complain about ledger lines; learn >>> to read them and be comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, >>> only 5. >>> >>> >>> >>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing >>> instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef >>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they >>> have to think that way too. What sense does that make?! >>> >>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of >>> ledger >>> lines. Well, what fixes that? Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and >>> stems in both directions. I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor >>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same). No matter who you are, it >>> keeps >>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their >>> own part. But, I could go on and on about practicality. There are several >>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the >>> apocalypse. >>> >>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: just a >>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano & >>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a >>> reduction (if its an a cappella work). If the parts are more polyrhythmic >>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be >>> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course). Think >>> about >>> it: Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4, >>> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven. I think >>> that's doable. >>> >>> >>> >>> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then >>> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the >>> middle, and the brake on the right. Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in >>> trying to drive that car. That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef. >>> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated. I AM used >>> to it, I just hate it. >>> >>> >>> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception. This >>> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight >>> (and eventually, all "sights."). If the tenor part ventures high, and >>> stays >>> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in >>> their >>> layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines. They have ultimate control >>> over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for >>> over 10 years). The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and >>> asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef; >>> they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear. The >>> same goes for adults. I think that where things are getting lost and >>> mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through >>> publishers. Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work. It's >>> a >>> harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Patrick J. M. Sheehan >>> Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy >>> >>> P. S. Music >>> >>> <mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > _______________________________________________ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
