In this case, I'd suggest that some of the possibly relevant facts, besides that the U.S. has a higher homicide rate than the U.K., would include:
- how those homicide rates, and gun involvement in them, has fluctuated over time, particularly either since the U.K.'s highly restrictive gun laws were replaced by even more onerous ones (up, relative to the U.S.) or since the U.K.'s virtually non-existent gun laws were replaced over the course of a century by restrictive ones (essentially no change, at least until recently);
- how the U.K.'s homicide rate and gun availability compare to those in the rest of Europe, since the report in question seems to emphasize the rest of Europe (homicide and other violent crime rising faster, with among the lowest levels of gun ownership, at about 5% of households, compared to more the 10 in Germany, 20-30 in France and Scandinavia, and 2% in the Netherlands where, curiously, guns have involved in a higher percentage of their few homicides than in Canada, with gun ownership around 30%);
- whether, perhaps ignoring sports like the U.S. and Northern Ireland, there's any relationship between gun availability and overall homicide or suicide rates, and anti-gun Killias and not-as-anti-gun Kleck both say no;
- whether other factors than just guns and gun laws might explain the variations in violent crime in various countries.
PHB
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Kleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 2:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fewer guns, more crime.


The UK has a population of about 60 million and, according to the Telegraph story you quote, 1070 homicides per year. 

The US has a population of about 290 million and 15900 homicides (2001 figure from the UCR). 

That gives the US a homicide rate 3.3 times as high as the UK rate.

The UK rate is somewhat distorted by the ongoing civil war in Northern Ireland, which has a homicide rate about three times that of the rest of the UK.

If this is to be a forum for scholarly discussion, then it seems to me that it ought to be incumbent on posters to state all of the obviously relevant facts, including those that are not supportive of the points they wish to make.



At 10:31 AM 10/29/2003, you wrote:

Gun control works???

"... the "victimisation risk" - showing the risk of suffering a crime - in England and Wales is higher for overall crime than anywhere else in Europe, and higher than in America. The same is true of falling victim to "contact" - violent - crime."
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F10%2F25%2Fncrim25.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=50048
 
 
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