Bob Hassinger wrote:
> Keep in mind that Firebug is used by both Windows ands Mac users, as
> well as some other OSs. The system conventions and standard windows
> are different. For example the position and appearances of close,
> zoom, etc. And also - in my experience when I close the last window
> for an app on Windows it the app usually goes away completely and
> gives up its memory, etc. Not always, but usually. On the other
> hand, on the Mac the usual (but maybe not universal) behavior is to
> keep the app in memory after the last window closes, with an icon
> remaining in the dock, flagged that is still active/present/whatever.
> When an app is active on the Mac you pretty much universally have a
> Quit option in the app menu (note this is somewhat a consequence of
> the difference between menus attached to each window in Windows, and
> the single menu bar at the top of the screen for the app that
> currently has focus, so on the Mac there isn't a need for an app
> window in order to have a way to completely quit an app or get back to
> it).
great point.
>
> I suspect those differences, and different peoples varying familiarity
> with both may lead to some of the disconnects in these discussions.
> What a Windows user expects to have happen when they close, minimize,
> zoom,
> quit, etc., and the UI elements to do them, are somewhat different from the
> Mac user's.
> Absent clearly understood meanings and functions that cross the OSs
> there is going to be confusion.
> Back to different users coming from different expectations, finding it
> difficult to infer what
> Firebug is trying to do,
> what its model behind the scenes is, and maybe some of the Firebug
> developers' difficulties understanding what some people try to say.
mac doesn't really have button icons for expand and min and close like
FB has so really the only closest thing to do is to compare it to a
windows app which it tries to mimic. I think this is confusing cuz there
are two discussion interlaced here, one about the look and feel of the
buttons and the other is about the activation model. These are related
but not directly other then what actions they do, we are talk more abotu
instance of these components rather then context as you describe with
the OS. I merely used M$ as an example becuase it is the most widely
used OS in the world, and have put alot more research into what and
where to position specific chrome type UI components.
>
> I would like a couple of things. One is
> clear place to find "About Firebug" and "Help".
this should be the last items on the context menu wghen you rigth click
on the bug in the status bar, and the bug icon in the top left of FB
> On Windows (XP anyway) I think users expect to find both under the
> Help menu, and that is nearly always available in the menu bar of each
> app. On the Mac, Help is in the Help menu, which is just about always
> available from the menu bar when it is displayed for the current app.
> And About is always under the app menu in the menu bar when it is
> displayed for the app. Not sure about Windows, but I think the
> consistency on the Mac flows from well established conventions and
> Human Interface guidance from Apple.
M$ is almost the same, i think adding a help tab after the net tab would
be awesome, maybe use that as a start page or help page with a search
that pulls info from discussion groups/forum/website
>
> I would like an easily found Preferences option for Firebug. Under
> that you might be able to place many of the controls and options that
> are desired.
i think what your getting to is that FB needs an optuions and prefernce
dialog config thingy that popups up, maybe consolidate alot of those
group sub items in the context menu, to shorten up how many items are in
the menu's
> If it was easy to put controls there maybe it would be easier to
> satisfy some of the complaints with options/settings. On the Mac that
> is most often found in the app menu. In Windows the convention for
> Preferences/Options/etc. is less well established but usually findable.
in windows its usually in its own options menu, an = would be adding an
options menu after the net tab that is a drop down or use the panel
itself to display the content
>
> Under Help, or somewhere easily found I would suggest starting with a
> set of definitions for the terms used to describe the various states
> and actions. For Firebug what do Active, On, Off, Minimized,
> Detached, etc. mean, and relate them to what is going on. I find I
> have a lot of trouble reading these discussions because I am not at
> all sure everyone is using the same terms to mean the same things, the
> customary terminology varies between OSs, and perhaps even within the
> experiences on one OS, and so/ /*I* don't nessesaraly know for sure
> what is meant.
that stems from the lack of properly document and walkthough IMHO, maybe
say a glossary would do us all some good.
>
> And that wish list leads back to where those should be so it is
> constant with user experiences with other tools and their expectations
> based on them, so they can find them. DO NOT expect people to
> discover obscure unconventional interface functions without leading
> them to them or having to tell them in forums like this. Example: the
> Firebug bug in the status bar area is not too bad to get into Firebug,
> but the idea that a right click on it is what leads you to important
> settings which change your experience significantly is quite hidden
> and easy to totally miss as far as I know. Likewise countless people
> have missed the subtlety of the little down triangles in the menu bar
> that make major changes. Recently some of that has been pointed out a
> bit better, but it is still obscure and not consistent with the normal
> GUIs in the major systems and apps.
this happens to me, i personally dont have itme to hunt and discover
new features in FB, so unfortunatly i know i dont use it to its full
potential, which means if im not as a season dev and user of FB since
its inception, alot of other people whom are not as familiar will only
use a small fraction of the tool. WIth that in mind, what good is
bolting on more and more features, if our users have a difficult time
figure out all of the features and sub tools this tool hads to offer dev's
>
> Bob
maybe this correspondence and other corresepondence on these issues
could be digested into a single white paper strategy and future
guildline and outline for the direction of FB, then we can have these
discussion on things like the activation model /before/ they are
developed, rather then getting a shyt storm of complaints. i shyt you
not, there are literaryr like 250+ discussions and emals about this
stupid activation model.
just some idea on the topic, good discussion.
kara
>
> On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Kara Rawson wrote:
>
>>
>> Steven Roussey wrote:
>>> While the discussion of icons is going on, and seeing that icons are
>>> getting nicer, I'd like to make a suggestion. I'll see about designing
>>> the icon in another post...
>>>
>>> Firebug itself can be: {on | off}
>>>
>>> In the case of {on},
>>> Firebug UI can be: {shown | hidden}
>>>
>>> In the case of {shown},
>>> Firebug UI location: {bottom of page | separate window}
>>>
>>> The current situation (fb 1.5a12):
>>>
>>>
>>> In Firefox's status bar:
>>> - the Firebug icon will show whether it is {on | off} by being colored
>>> or gray
>>> - Clicking it will ensure Firebug is {on} and will toggle {shown |
>>> hidden} if location is {bottom of page}
>>> - Clicking it will ensure Firebug is {on} and will bring separate
>>> window to front if location is {separate window}
>>> - right clicking it brings up a context menu
>>>
>>> In Firebug, bottom of the page:
>>> - the Firebug icon acts like a menu, even though it looks a button and
>>> is a group of other buttons. That menu is not the same as the context
>>> menu above, and right clicking it does not bring up that other menu
>>> either.
>>> - it (and the other two) are menu/icons in the area of the tabs, while
>>> there is an area of icons on the right side as well
>>>
>>> In Firebug, separate window:
>>> - the Firebug icon is gone, and instead there is a menu bar.
>>> - unlike when on the bottom of the page, there is no button to from
>>> separate window to bottom of page
>>>
>>>
>>> Suggestions:
>>>
>>> 1. Move icons from left to right -- away from the tabs
>>>
>> maybe put the inspect, search pause to the left of the search box but
>> still on the right side of the plugin
>>> 2. Change the icon for the menu when firebug is on the bottom of the
>>> page. Same icon doing different things. And give it a tooltip.
>>>
>> does it do this already
>>> 3. Add the tool icons to the status bar
>>>
>> why add more clutter, (you are talking about FF status and not FB's)
>>> 4. Move the search box into the tab area -- it took a while to figure
>>> out that it worked in all the tabs
>>>
>> i like your mockuyp on this
>>> 5. When the focus is in Firebug, control-F should move the focus to
>>> the search box
>>>
>> ummm no, that is the shortcut for finding things on a page, maybe ctrl +
>> shift / alt + f
>>> 6. Add the inspector tool to the Firefox status bar
>>>
>> why must we clutter our system tray, personally speaking i dont like to
>> have more then a few, its veyr very very distracting, dyslexic i am.
>>> 7. Highlight the firebug icon in the status bar when Firebug is on but
>>> hidden and stuff is being written to the console. We could use the
>>> saturated version used for the hover of the menu that uses the Firebug
>>> icon...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> mockup:
>>> http://www.visigroups.com/_/Image/Cms/606/ad21c72ae0a16faf49375cfcb57f16ef/0/0
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> overall i do not like having the double redundant icons in your mockup,
>> this is a plugin not a webpage, this plugin is designed for web dev's
>> not idiot web browsing users.
>>
>> however i do strongly agree with you about moving all of the icons to
>> the right side.
>>
>> neways thats some great feedback and mockup, great work...even if i dont
>> agree with u ^_^
>>
>> kara
>>
>>
>
>
> >
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