Dear Bob, Perhaps, you can explain a bit and provide examples of apophatic considerations which can be relevant in explaining ecosystems.
I find it not difficult at all to find sociological examples. For example, the communication of meaning (unlike the communication of information) cannot directly be observed, but entertaining this hypothesis enriches our understanding of the phenomena. In sociology, Giddens, for example, has called this a focus on "instantiations". Social structures remain latent, and accordingly operate in a virtual reality. In other words (Husserl) one can consider these orders of expectations res cogitans as different from res extensa. Is there something similar in biology? I assume that Maturana would deny it because the focus in the theory of autopoiesis is very much on the observables and observed information as different from expected information. I always thought that this was a biologistic a priori, but you seem to say that in biology there is also room for assuming that unobservables are important for the explanation. I can easily see that this may cross the borderline of becoming obscure. How does one prevent that? It would be most helpful if you can provide examples. Best wishes, Loet ________________________________ Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ -----Original Message----- From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Robert Ulanowicz Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 7:30 PM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Recapping the discussion? Quoting "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>: > The ratio that Bob Ulanowicz has pointed out in the self-organization > processes of ecosystems looks very important. Is it an "informational > signature" that we can find in other fields (eg, competing companies, > financial flows, neurodynamic sel-organization) accompanying problem > solving operations performed in a populational way? Does a similar > ratio appears in microphysical realms? Maybe Bob will be willing to > expand on the emergence of that complexity indicator. I should also > point to the strong regularities and ratios, and power laws, that Dear Pedro, It's most gratifying to me that you feel the ratio between constraint and flexibility is an important topic. I, too, believe it is of extreme importance! Of course, I didn't think up this balance. I actually resisted for a long while what my data on ecosystem networks were telling me. But there was no denying that the ratio between constraint and flexibility hovered around the ratio 1/e (about 38%). First there are the philosophical implications. Science for the most part is an apodictic enterprise. Laws and mechanisms prevail everywhere. Information theory (at least the Shannon type) begins, however, with the apophatic - the very lack of constraint. Constraint is calculated indirectly by difference (the "entropy" minus the conditional entropy). What the data on ecosystem networks are saying is that the apophatic is more prevalent than the apodictic - flexibility is more important to persistent systems than their internal organizational constraints. This is a major departure from science-as-usual. It says we have been looking at nature (at least in its complex manifestations) with one eye closed. It is necessary to address the apophatic before we can gain a full picture of how they endure over time. Fortunately, information theory allows us to quantify the apophatic. (I realize that many dismiss the Shannon approach to information, but that's usually because they are dissatisfied with how it quantifies [or doesn't adequately quantify] the apodictic nature of information. Such may be the case. The strength of the Shannon approach, however, is that it quantifies *both* the apodictic and the apophatic in the same mathematical terminology. That is no small accomplishment, especially if more than half the story lies beyond the purview of apodictic science.) Being able to quantify that which is missing allows us, in almost oxymoronic fashion, to remediate some problems with systems. For example, in a ms to be published on network methods in marine systems I demonstrate how eutrophic estuarine systems are lacking in flexibility and how variational techniques can reveal ways to move the system back towards a more sustainable balance between constraint and flexibility. In fact, the entire effort to preserve biodiversity rests, not on apodictic premises, but rather on apophatic considerations (which is why, until now, theoretical justification for the effort has remained wanting). As for domains outside of ecology, Koichiro has already told us that the ratio of meaning to ambiguity in all natural languages that have been studied converges rather tightly upon 1/e. In economics it appears that overemphasis upon apodictic market efficiency might be destabilizing to our economy (Ecological Economics 69:76-81 [209]), but further data upon economic networks are necessary. It was the intuition of Gregory Bateson that the apodictic approach to problem solving could get us into trouble - leading sometimes to very, very bad ends. And so we are indebted to another thinker, Michael Conrad, for his intuition that, when focusing upon information, we might discover that the larger *necessary* role in system dynamics may actually belong to its complement - indeterminacy! Peace to all! Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert E. Ulanowicz | Tel: +1-352-378-7355 Arthur R. Marshall Laboratory | FAX: +1-352-392-3704 Department of Biology | Emeritus, Chesapeake Biol. Lab Bartram Hall 110 | University of Maryland University of Florida | Email <u...@cbl.umces.edu> Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 USA | Web <http://www.cbl.umces.edu/~ulan> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
