Dear Bob,
I read the book of Anthony Reading on Meaningful Information, but I am a bit disappointed. It seems to me not a good idea to uncouple information from uncertainty and probabilistic entropy, and to use energy-transfer instead as the lead metaphor for information. The objection that two kinds of entropies are otherwise introduced (on p. 148) reveals that the author has not really studied the issue because thermodynamic entropy is expressed in Watts/Kelvin and probabilistic entropy in bits, and the two can be related transparently via S = k(B) * H. Furthermore, we have the notion of negentropy of Brillouin (1962), and the elaborations of Ashby, Krippendorff, and others about the difference between entropy and information. Thus, we have a much richer apparatus. The other objection that one should focus on forms is also not a major one, because any form can be written as a multi-variate probability distribution and thus introduced into information theory as a calculus. A geometrical form, for example, can be represented as a three-dimensional probability distribution. Information theory furthermore allows for combining the static and dynamic analysis into a calculus (Bar-Hillel, Theil). In my opinion, Shannon-type information can be considered as only a series of differences (in a probability distribution), and a difference which makes a difference (Bateson) can be considered as meaningful information, but requires the specification of a system of reference, for which the meaningless differences can make a difference. This can be operationalized as negentropy (Delta-H or minus Delta-H). The difference which makes a difference can reduce the complexity or add to it. J Since differences can be made at each moment and over time, we obtain a difference(1) which makes a difference(2) at each moment and a difference(3) over time. If the system of reference is able to recombine differences (2) and (3), a difference(4) can be envisaged that can be used for the self-organization in the present. It seems to me that the different senses of meaningful information and meaning can thus be distinguished, operationalized, and measured (in bits), and at a more abstract level than only in a biology. Best, Loet _____ Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> &hl=en From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:31 PM To: Stanley N Salthe Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Dear Stanley - how can there be information in the abiotic world? Information is the noun associated with the verb to inform or informing. A rock can not be informed. An abiotic entity can not be informed. Information begins with life. A bacterium can be informed but not an abiotic entity. When we look at stars or the moon or a fossil, they are not information. Our interpretation of the things in nature we observe, biotic or abiotic is the information. Perhaps I am missing something but that is how I see things from my naive point of view. The star, the moon or the fossil are not signs unless you believe that God exists and he or she made these signs for us to interpret. What do you mean that semiosis is a universal phenomenon? best Bob On 2012-03-18, at 11:48 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: As my first posting for this week: Bob, Loet -- I respond by clarifying that my meaning in this little equation is that (following Sebeok) semiosis is a universal phenomenon. The system of interpretance in my effort here is the LOCALE. It is such locales that have evolved into organisms and social systems. In organisms and other distinct systems of interpretance, the sign is the context for interpretation. So, in the little equation, I am GENERALIZING semiosis into abiotic Nature. STAN On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <l...@leydesdorff.net> wrote: Dear Bob, Yes, I agree: the difference that makes a difference is operationally generated by a receiving system; information itself is nothing but a series of differences (contained in a probability distribution). The selection mechanisms in the receiving systems that position the incoming uncertainty have to be specified (as hypotheses). Meaningful information emerges from selecting the signal from the noise. The meaningful information (the differences that make a difference) can again be communicated as information (for example, in and among biological systems). Thus, the operation is recursive and the communication / autopoiesis continues. Meaning can only be communicated by systems which are able to entertain a symbolic order reflexively such as human beings and in interhuman discourses. Ill read the book by Reading. Best, Loet _____ Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598 <tel:%2B31-20-%20525%206598> ; fax: +31-842239111 <tel:%2B31-842239111> l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> &hl=en From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:55 PM To: Stanley N Salthe Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Stan - great formula but as I learned from Anthony Reading who wrote a lovely book on information Meaningful Information - it is the recipient that brings the meaning to the information. PS My book What is Information was been translated into Portuguese and published in Brazil where I am doing a 4 city, 5 university speaking tour. The book has not yet appeared in English but it is scheduled to be published soon by Demo press. Regards from Brazil - Bob On 2012-03-17, at 11:17 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b STAN On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant <christophe.men...@hotmail.fr> wrote: Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical & meaningless) and upwards (biological & meaningful). The difference being about interpretation or not. It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and meaning generation. There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding -Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477). Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary Approach Content of the chapter: 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic approach 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary approach 2.3. Meaning transmission 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks of meanings 2.5. From meaningful information to meaningful representations 3. Meaningful Information and Representations in Humans 4. Meaningful Information and Representations in Artificial Systems 4.1. Meaningful information and representations from traditional AI to Nouvelle AI. Embodied-situated AI 4.2. Meaningful representations versus the guidance theory of representation 4.3. Meaningful information and representations versus the enactive approach 5. Conclusion and Continuation 5.1. Conclusion 5.2. Continuation A version close to the final text can be reached at <http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf> http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf As Plamen says, we may be at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. But Im afraid that an understanding of the meaning of information needs clear enough an understanding of the constraint at the source of the meaning generation process. And even for basic organic meanings coming from a stay alive constraint, we have to face the still mysterious nature of life. And for human meanings, the even more mysterious nature of human mind. This is not to discourage our efforts in investigating these questions. Just to put a stick in the ground showing where we stand. Best, Christophe _____ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:47:28 +0100 From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. -------- Mensaje original -------- Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <mailto:plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com> <plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com> Para: Pedro C. Marijuan <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> Referencias: <mailto:20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com> <20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com> <mailto:4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es> <4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es> +++++++++++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) "daemons" and (Turing) "oracles" closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexit y/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto "information is physical" if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look "downwards" it is OK, but in the "upward" direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has "content" and "meaning". Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles more focused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] Sincerely, Walter _____ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov landline: +49.30.38.10.11.25 <tel:%2B49.30.38.10.11.25> fax/ums: +49.30.48.49.88.26.4 <tel:%2B49.30.48.49.88.26.4> mobile: +44.12.23.96.85.69 <tel:%2B44.12.23.96.85.69> email: pla...@simeio.org URL: www.simeio.org <http://www.simeio.org/> ------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ______________________ Robert K. Logan Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ______________________ Robert K. Logan Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
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