Bob -- I seem to have missed your statement here, and id not answer, so I do so now.
Dear Stanley - how can there be information in the abiotic world? Information is the noun associated with the verb to inform or informing. A rock can not be informed. An abiotic entity can not be informed. Information begins with life. A bacterium can be informed but not an abiotic entity. When we look at stars or the moon or a fossil, they are not information. Our interpretation of the things in nature we observe, biotic or abiotic is the information. Perhaps I am missing something but that is how I see things from my naive point of view. The star, the moon or the fossil are not signs unless you believe that God exists and he or she made these signs for us to interpret. What do you mean that semiosis is a universal phenomenon? The short answer is that any condition or context that persists significantly beyond the time required for some process or event to occur is a nonholonomic constraint on that process, and 'informs' it. This is represented by the values of constants in a physical equation. STAN On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 5:54 AM, Søren Brier <sb....@cbs.dk> wrote: > Dear Bill and Bob > > Thanks. I hope to see you both here if you pass through Copenhagen. We are > having a PhD. course on cybersemiotics based on the book the 22-26. of > August here. We hope for a lovely discussion. > > Venlig hilsen/best wishes > > Søren Brier > > Professor of semiotics of Information , Cognition and Communication, at > Department of International Studies of Culture and Communication, research > group on Language, Cognition and Communication (LaCoMe), CBS. > uk.cbs.dk/staff/soeren_brier > Dalgas Have 15, DK-2000 Frederiksberg. Room DH2Ø042. Tel. (+ 45) 38153132 > Ed. Cybernetics & Human Knowing http://www.imprint.co.uk/C&HK/ , > Subscription $ 104 > Book: Cybersemiotics: Why Information Is Not Enough, Toronto University > Press, 2008, sec. ed. 2010. Google book. > ENTROPI, Special Issue "Cybersemiotics—Integration of the informational > and semiotic paradigms of cognition and communication" > http://www.mdpi.com/journal/entropy/special_issues/cybersemiotics-paradigms/ > ________________________________________ > From: Bob Logan [lo...@physics.utoronto.ca] > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:48 PM > To: Bill Seaman > Cc: Loet Leydesdorff; Stanley N Salthe; fis; Søren Brier > Subject: Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. > > Dear Bill - thanks for alerting me to Soren's book. When I was last in > Copenhagen two years ago I had a very enjoyable meeting with Soren. I look > forward to reading his book. - Bob > > Hi Soren - congrats on what looks to be a fascinating book. Hope all is > well in Copenhagen - Bob > > > On 2012-03-30, at 2:09 PM, Bill Seaman wrote: > > I came across this book which is quite interesting and related to the > topic: > > > Cybersemiotics: Why Information Is Not Enough (Toronto Studies in > Semiotics and Communication) [Hardcover] > Soren Brier< > http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&ie=UTF8&field-author=Soren%20Brier> > (Author) > > > http://www.amazon.com/Cybersemiotics-Information-Toronto-Semiotics-Communication/dp/0802092209 > > Book description: > A growing field of inquiry, biosemiotics is a theory of cognition and > communication that unites the living and the cultural world. What is > missing from this theory, however, is the unification of the information > and computational realms of the non-living natural and technical world. > Cybersemiotics provides such a framework. > > By integrating cybernetic information theory into the unique semiotic > framework of C.S. Peirce, Søren Brier attempts to find a unified conceptual > framework that encompasses the complex area of information, cognition, and > communication science. This integration is performed through Niklas > Luhmann's autopoietic systems theory of social communication. The link > between cybernetics and semiotics is, further, an ethological and > evolutionary theory of embodiment combined with Lakoff and Johnson's > 'philosophy in the flesh.' This demands the development of a > transdisciplinary philosophy of knowledge as much common sense as it is > cultured in the humanities and the sciences. Such an epistemological and > ontological framework is also developed in this volume. > > Cybersemiotics not only builds a bridge between science and culture, it > provides a framework that encompasses them both. The cybersemiotic > framework offers a platform for a new level of global dialogue between > knowledge systems, including a view of science that does not compete with > religion but offers the possibility for mutual and fruitful exchange. > > Best > Bill > > > > > Bill Seaman > Professor, Department of Art, Art History & Visual Studies > DUKE UNIVERSITY > 114 b East Duke Building > Box 90764 > Durham, NC 27708, USA > +1-919-684-2499 > http://billseaman.com/ > http://fds.duke.edu/db/aas/AAH/faculty/william.seaman > http://www.dibs.duke.edu/research/profiles/98-william-seaman > > RadioSeaman > Paste into itunes (Advanced/open audio streams) for internet radio: > http://smw-aux.trinity.duke.edu:8000/radioseaman > > > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Loet Leydesdorff wrote: > > Dear Bob, > > I read the book of Anthony Reading on Meaningful Information, but I am a > bit disappointed. It seems to me not a good idea to uncouple information > from uncertainty and probabilistic entropy, and to use energy-transfer > instead as the lead metaphor for information. The objection that two kinds > of entropies are otherwise introduced (on p. 148) reveals that the author > has not really studied the issue because thermodynamic entropy is expressed > in Watts/Kelvin and probabilistic entropy in bits, and the two can be > related transparently via S = k(B) * H. Furthermore, we have the notion of > negentropy of Brillouin (1962), and the elaborations of Ashby, > Krippendorff, and others about the difference between entropy and > information. > > Thus, we have a much richer apparatus. The other objection that one should > focus on forms is also not a major one, because any form can be written as > a multi-variate probability distribution and thus introduced into > information theory as a calculus. A geometrical form, for example, can be > represented as a three-dimensional probability distribution. Information > theory furthermore allows for combining the static and dynamic analysis > into a calculus (Bar-Hillel, Theil). > > In my opinion, Shannon-type information can be considered as only a series > of differences (in a probability distribution), and a “difference which > makes a difference” (Bateson) can be considered as “meaningful > information”, but requires the specification of a system of reference, for > which the meaningless differences can make a difference. This can be > operationalized as “negentropy” (Delta-H or minus Delta-H). The difference > which makes a difference can reduce the complexity or add to it. ☺ > > Since differences can be made at each moment and over time, we obtain a > difference(1) which makes a difference(2) at each moment and a > difference(3) over time. If the system of reference is able to recombine > differences (2) and (3), a difference(4) can be envisaged that can be used > for the self-organization in the present. It seems to me that the different > senses of meaningful information and meaning can thus be distinguished, > operationalized, and measured (in bits), and at a more abstract level than > only in a biology. > > Best, > Loet > > ________________________________ > Loet Leydesdorff > Professor, University of Amsterdam > Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), > Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. > Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 > l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; > http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; > http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en > > From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> > [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:31 PM > To: Stanley N Salthe > Cc: fis > Subject: Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. > > Dear Stanley - how can there be information in the abiotic world? > Information is the noun associated with the verb to inform or informing. A > rock can not be informed. An abiotic entity can not be informed. > Information begins with life. A bacterium can be informed but not an > abiotic entity. When we look at stars or the moon or a fossil, they are not > information. Our interpretation of the things in nature we observe, biotic > or abiotic is the information. Perhaps I am missing something but that is > how I see things from my naive point of view. The star, the moon or the > fossil are not signs unless you believe that God exists and he or she made > these signs for us to interpret. What do you mean that semiosis is a > universal phenomenon? > > best Bob > On 2012-03-18, at 11:48 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: > > > As my first posting for this week: > > Bob, Loet -- I respond by clarifying that my meaning in this little > equation is that (following Sebeok) semiosis is a universal phenomenon. > The system of interpretance in my effort here is the LOCALE. It is such > locales that have evolved into organisms and social systems. In organisms > and other distinct systems of interpretance, the sign is the context for > interpretation. So, in the little equation, I am GENERALIZING semiosis > into abiotic Nature. > > STAN > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <l...@leydesdorff.net > <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net>> wrote: > Dear Bob, > > Yes, I agree: the difference that makes a difference is operationally > generated by a receiving system; information itself is nothing but a series > of differences (contained in a probability distribution). The selection > mechanisms in the receiving systems that position the incoming uncertainty > have to be specified (as hypotheses). Meaningful information emerges from > selecting the signal from the noise. > > The meaningful information (the differences that make a difference) can > again be communicated as information (for example, in and among biological > systems). Thus, the operation is recursive and the communication / > autopoiesis continues. Meaning can only be communicated by systems which > are able to entertain a symbolic order reflexively such as human beings and > in interhuman discourses. > > I’ll read the book by Reading. > Best, > Loet > > ________________________________ > Loet Leydesdorff > Professor, University of Amsterdam > Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), > Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. > Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598<tel:%2B31-20-%20525%206598>; fax: +31-842239111 > <tel:%2B31-842239111> > l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; > http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ; > http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en > > From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> > [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es>] > On Behalf Of Bob Logan > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:55 PM > To: Stanley N Salthe > Cc: fis > Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. > > Stan - great formula but as I learned from Anthony Reading who wrote a > lovely book on information Meaningful Information - it is the recipient > that brings the meaning to the information. > > PS My book What is Information was been translated into Portuguese and > published in Brazil where I am doing a 4 city, 5 university speaking tour. > The book has not yet appeared in English but it is scheduled to be > published soon by Demo press. > > Regards from Brazil - Bob > > > > On 2012-03-17, at 11:17 AM, Stanley N Salthe wrote: > > Concerning the meaning (or effect) of information (or constraint) in > general, I have proposed that context is crucial in modulating the effect > -- in all cases. Thus: it would be like the logical example: > > Effect = context a x Constraint ^context b > > STAN > > > > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Christophe Menant < > christophe.men...@hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.men...@hotmail.fr>> wrote: > Dear FISers, > Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical & meaningless) > and upwards (biological & meaningful). The difference being about > interpretation or not. > It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and > meaning generation. > There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book ( > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding-Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477 > ). > “Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary > Approach” > Content of the chapter: > 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation > 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information > 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic > approach > 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach > 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms > 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary > approach > 2.3. Meaning transmission > 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks > of meanings > 2.5. From meaningful information to meaningful representations > 3. Meaningful Information and Representations in Humans > 4. Meaningful Information and Representations in Artificial Systems > 4.1. Meaningful information and representations from traditional AI to > Nouvelle AI. Embodied-situated AI > 4.2. Meaningful representations versus the guidance theory of > representation > 4.3. Meaningful information and representations versus the enactive > approach > 5. Conclusion and Continuation > 5.1. Conclusion > 5.2. Continuation > A version close to the final text can be reached at > http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf > > As Plamen says, we may be at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. > But I’m afraid that an understanding of the meaning of information needs > clear enough an understanding of the constraint at the source of the > meaning generation process. And even for basic organic meanings coming from > a “stay alive” constraint, we have to face the still mysterious nature of > life. And for human meanings, the even more mysterious nature of human mind. > This is not to discourage our efforts in investigating these questions. > Just to put a stick in the ground showing where we stand. > Best, > Christophe > ________________________________ > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:47:28 +0100 > From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> > To: fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. > > -------- Mensaje original -------- > Asunto: > > Re: [Fis] Physics of computing > > Fecha: > > Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 > > De: > > Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com><mailto: > plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com> > > Para: > > Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es><mailto: > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> > > Referencias: > > <20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com><mailto: > 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com> < > 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es><mailto:4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es> > > > > > +++++++++++ > > Dear All, > > I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is > interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense > taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. > Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But > information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to > offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, > we may need to take our (Maxwell) "daemons" and (Turing) "oracles" closer > under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper > approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics > approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: > biology driven mathematics and computation. > > By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by > Springer: > http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 > If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide > delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers > via email to: pla...@simeio.org<mailto:pla...@simeio.org>. There must be > at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. > > Best, > > Plamen > > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan < > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote: > Dear discussants, > > I tend to disagree with the motto "information is physical" if taken too > strictly. Obviously if we look "downwards" it is OK, but in the "upward" > direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the > dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to > be entered. Then the signal, the info, has "content" and "meaning". > Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just > conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of > absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. > By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or > 1995 paper in BioSystems... > > best > > ---Pedro > > > > walter.riof...@terra.com.pe<mailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe> escribió: > Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy > and reality. > I would like point out to other articles more focused in how coherence > and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): > > Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., > Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer > through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): > 782-786. > > Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a > conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. > 369-373. > > Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) > Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. > Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. > > Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. > arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] > > > Sincerely, > > > Walter > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > fis mailing list > > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov > landline: +49.30.38.10.11.25<tel:%2B49.30.38.10.11.25> > fax/ums: +49.30.48.49.88.26.4<tel:%2B49.30.48.49.88.26.4> > mobile: +44.12.23.96.85.69<tel:%2B44.12.23.96.85.69> > email: pla...@simeio.org<mailto:pla...@simeio.org> > URL: www.simeio.org<http://www.simeio.org/> > > ------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > ______________________ > > Robert K. Logan > Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD > Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto > www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan< > http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > ______________________ > > Robert K. Logan > Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD > Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto > www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan< > http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > ______________________ > > Robert K. Logan > Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD > Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto > www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan< > http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> > > > > >
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