On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 6:59 AM Mike Karels <m...@karels.net> wrote:
> On 11 Jan 2024, at 7:30, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > > > On 11/01/2024 09:54, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:36:24 +0100 > >> Alexander Leidinger <alexan...@leidinger.net> wrote: > > > > [..] > > > >>> There's one possibility which nobody talked about yet... changing the > >>> default to noatime at install time in fstab / zfs set. > >>> > >>> I fully agree to not violate POLA by changing the default to noatime in > >>> any FS. I always set noatime everywhere on systems I take care about, > no > >>> exceptions (any user visible mail is handled via maildir/IMAP, not > >>> mbox). I haven't made up my mind if it would be a good idea to change > >>> bsdinstall to set noatime (after asking the user about it, and later > >>> maybe offer the possibility to use relatime in case it gets > >>> implemented). I think it is at least worthwile to discuss this > >>> possibility (including what the default setting of bsdinstall should be > >>> for this option). > > > > [..] > > > >> A different aspect of view. > >> Nowadays, storages are quickly moving from HDD, aka spinning rust, to > >> SSD. > >> And SSD has a risk of sudden-death of wearing out. In ancient days, HDD > >> dies not suddenly and at least some cases admins could have time to > >> replace suspicious drives. But SSD dies basically suddenly. > >> > >> IMHO, this could be a valid reason to violate POLA. In limited use > >> cases, atime is useful, at the cost of amplified write accesses. > >> But in most cases, it doesn't have positive functionality nowadays. > >> > >> Anyway, we should have time to discuss whether it should be done or not > >> until upcoming stable/15 branch. stable/14 is already here and it > >> wouldn't be a good thing to MFC. Only *.0-RELEASE should be the point > >> to introduce this, unlike discussion about vi and ee on forums. > > > > The default values change over time as the needs of people, programs and > hardware change. Many values for sysctls changed over time. > > If "noatime" can help people to not trash SSD / SD storage, I can > imagine that bsdinstall will detect the storage type (simple guess can be > made by diskinfo -v) and offer a "noatime" option that the user can > check/uncheck. This option can be pre-selected for flash based storage. > > I don't care defaults for my-self, I can change them, but sane defaults > should be beneficial for new users without much background knowledge. > > > > Kind regards > > Miroslav Lachman > > I like the idea of an option in bsdinstall, but I don't think it is > necessary > to check the storage type. It could simply default to noatime. > > I think we should automatically use noatime on SD card images (where > bsdinstall > doesn't get used). > > Separately, I think a relatime option would be a good compromise, and I > would > probably use it. > I think these are sensible steps. We already do something similar for ZFS. Warner
