Well, I'm delighted you find the way I set up that image of evolution as a ladder of consciousness to maybe not be trivial. I've been calling the growth systems I've been studying as 'near-living' things for a long time and this is one of the first ways of expressing it that seems to have gotten across. The big question to me is how do deal with this whole inside-outside barrier to understanding anyway, since it seems to be such a prevalent problem, especially for us humans. I'm not sure the term 'new level of accuracy' in calculation describes our progression, though. I think maybe we're following such a creative path because of a most stubborn kind of confusion. Take the big mess we're making of the earth, bound and determined to change the place ever more rapidly until we fix it! Very very strange indeed! :)
Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:26 PM > To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism. > > > This is a great post. Comments in caps below. I PROMISE I > AM NOT SHOUTING. > > Nicholas Thompson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Phil Henshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; The Friday Morning Applied > > Complexity > Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Date: 6/25/2006 10:23:22 AM > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism. > > > > > > > I have never understood the idea that animals are not self > > > conscious in some useful sense. Heck, self consciousness is > > > a necessary part of any feed forward system, isn't it? > > > > We've always thought of consciousness as some kind of > on-off thing. I > > think there's evidence of different kinds of > 'consciousness'. Simply > > any physical system acting as a whole is one starting point > I think, or > > call it an equivalent mystery if you like. It seems to > begin with the > > internalized loop networks of complex systems acting as a whole. > > 'Systems acting as a whole' and 'consciousness' both > display a kind of > > invisible but unified internal responsive structure or > condition... or > > something. It's heaping new meaning on a useful old word > that anyone is > > quite free to object to, of course, but would imply seeing > evolution as > > the bridge from one level of 'consciousness' to another. > Whether you > > like that linkage or not, I think it accurately suggests > that there are > > lots and lots of kinds of both to consider. > > I SEE MOST PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS AS RATIOS. SO TO CARRY ON WITH THE > DODGEM'S METAPHOR, IF I DESIRE TO COLLIDE WITH YOU I DESIRE THAT MY > POSITION DIVIDED BY YOUR POSITION EQUALS ONE. IN A MANNER OF > SPEAKING. > SAME AS A CHEETAH CHASING DOWN A GAZELLE. TO KNOW THE VALUE > OF THIS RATIO > I HAVE TO KNOW BOTH THE NUMERATOR AND THE DENOMINATOR. MOST > PSYCHOLOGY > TREATS SELF KNOWLEDGE AS MORE OR LESS UNCONTROVERSIAL, AS IF WE HAVE > PRIVILEDGED ACCESS TO OUR OWN FUTURE BEHAVIOR. WHO EVER "WE" > ARE, BY THE > WAY. BUT THE SAME PROCESSOR THAT IS COMPUTING THE FUTURE STATE OF THE > WORLD MUST ALSO COMPUTE THE FUTURE STATE OF ME. > > OK, SO, IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT THE EVOLUTION OF > HUMANS REPRESENTS A > NEW LEVEL OF ACCURACY OR SOPHISTICATION IN COMPUTING FUTURE > STATES OF ME, > THEN THAT IS AN IDEA I WOULD LIKE TO MULL OVER FOR A BIT. I > DONT THINK I > HAVE EVER HEARD IT SAID BEFORE. > > nick. > > > > > As for the active role of the organism in Darwinism, I agree > > > that the role of para-genetic inheritance systems is becoming > > > more and more evident every day and that NeoDarwinism has > > > been slow to adjust. If Carl would only get busy on his > > > artificial epigenisis idea. > > The evo. biologists have a concept - 'A' random with > respect to 'B' - > > (i.e. mutation to fitness) that looks at the interaction of > different > > levels of organization that may or may not be parts of the same > > hierarchy (as a GST theorist might say it). That means > coherent system > > consequences of one kind may act as random events in > another. I think > > it was invented to close a certain door in the logic of the > Darwinian > > model, but is useful to help define the wall you need to > jump over to > > find more coherent connections between system parts or > levels. That's > > part of what I hope to be doing in my study of the > non-linear dynamics I > > found in a plankton speciation event. > > [http://www.synapse9.com/GTRevis-2006fin.pdf] > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <friam@redfish.com> > > > > Date: 6/24/2006 12:00:30 PM > > > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34 > > > > > > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > > > > friam@redfish.com > > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > more specific > > > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > > > 1. Friday, 30 June (Nicholas Thompson) > > > > 2. Re: Friday, 30 June (Tom Johnson) > > > > 3. Re: Sensor networks and self-organization (Phil Henshaw) > > > > 4. String-bashing (Robert Holmes) > > > > 5. Re: String-bashing (Martin C. Martin) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:50:55 -0400 > > > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June > > > > To: Friam@redfish.com > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam > Meeting? And where > > > > does > > > that meeting occur these days. > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060623/519745a6/att > > > achment-0001.h > > > tml > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 18:22:34 -0600 > > > > From: "Tom Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "The Friday > Morning Applied > > > > Complexity Coffee Group" <friam@redfish.com> > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > Good ol' St. Johns. Looking forward to your visit. > > > > -t > > > > > > > > On 6/23/06, Nicholas Thompson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam Meeting? > > > And where > > > > > does that meeting occur these days. > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson<http://home.earthlink. > > > net/%7Enicktho > > > mpson> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, > > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ========================================== > > > > J. T. Johnson > > > > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > > > > www.analyticjournalism.com > > > > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) > > > > http://www.jtjohnson.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > > > > To change something, build a new model that makes the > > > existing model > > > > obsolete." > > > > -- > Buckminster > > > > Fuller ========================================== > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060623/80bfc94b/att > > > achment-0001.h > > > tml > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 09:13:52 -0400 > > > > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization > > > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > > > > <friam@redfish.com> > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > > > > > My guess it won't happen that soon. The major hurdle I see is > > > > intelligence doesn't come from passively conforming to > an imposed > > > > landscape (Darwin's idea), but from creatively exploring > > > discovered ones > > > > (the living systems idea). ...I think maybe we're making great > > > > progress, but sort of need to start over with our > design principle > > > > reversed! > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > > > > NY NY 10040 > > > > tel: 212-795-4844 > > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 4:37 AM > > > > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Intelligence is a very fuzzy and cloudy concept. My guess > > > > > it that the first machines with human-like intelligence > > > > > and self-consciousness are not far away, 10-20 years > > > > > perhaps (see the bets at http://www.longbets.org/1 or > > > > > http://www.longbets.org/15). This will > certainly be a > > > > > major > > > > > breakthrough - the next big evolutionary transition. > > > > > I personally think it is easier to build intelligent > > > > > agents in virtual worlds than robots in real worlds, > > > > > and I would expect the breakthrough here in the virtual > > > > > world. For the "secret of true AI", see the discussion at > > > > http://tinyurl.com/j4qck or http://tinyurl.com/k88wd > > > > > > > > -J. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > > Behalf Of Phil Henshaw > > > > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 2:43 AM > > > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization > > > > > > > > Yea, how far away would anyone guess it is to the invention > > > of the first > > > > 'intelligent' machine? Do you think it's a matter of > one or many > > > > missing discoveries, or just applying current knowledge > in a more > > > > complex way? > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > > > > NY NY 10040 > > > > tel: 212-795-4844 > > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:07:44 -0600 > > > > From: "Robert Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] String-bashing > > > > To: FRIAM <Friam@redfish.com> > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > Here's a fun string-bashing article: > > > > > http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articleArchive/jun2006/notevenwrong.php > > > > > > > > It makes a couple of serious points though. What I found > > > worrying was > > > > the claim (for which the author provides some limited > > > evidence) that > > > > it is now impossible to get on in physics academia > unless you drink > > > > the string > > > theory > > > > kool-aid. Whither (or should that be wither) academic freeedom? > > > > > > > > Robert > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060624/de3d058a/att > > > achment-0001.h > > > tml > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 5 > > > > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:46:06 -0400 > > > > From: "Martin C. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] String-bashing > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > > <friam@redfish.com> > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Holmes wrote: > > > > > What I found worrying was > > > > > the claim (for which the author provides some limited > > > evidence) that it > > > > > is now impossible to get on in physics academia unless > > > you drink the > > > > > string theory kool-aid. Whither (or should that be > > > wither) academic > > > > > freeedom? > > > > > > > > This is a normal dynamic in science, first identified (in > > > the popular > > > > mind) in Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific > Revolutions." > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226458083 > > > > > > > > The interesting question to me is what will cause the next > > > crisis, and > > > when. > > > > > > > > - Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Friam mailing list > > > > Friam@redfish.com > > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34 > > > > ************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
