Glen, I guess I'm intending "divergense" to specifically mean behavior "progressively departing from" what it was, both in the mathematical and common English sense. New kinds of behavior often develop as progressive changes from former kinds, right? So a pattern of divergince can signal the approach of an emergent change in kind. Maybe new trends in prices signal the unseen entry of new uses for a scarce resource, and a need to change models.... etc.
Phil Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "glen e. p. ropella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:14:55 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] or more simply, is there order? Thus spake Phil Henshaw circa 10/03/2008 07:47 AM: > Maybe it would then be clearer to say "diverging from apparent past > behavior, on the assumed belief that the future would continue to be a > replication of the past" rather than "diverging from assumptions". Well, there's no need to invent new terms for these things. If what you mean is periodicity versus quasi-periodicity versus sporadicalness (I hate that word... can I just use "sporadicity"? ;), then just use those terms rather than a vague concept of "divergence". We have plenty of tools to study the periodicity (or lack thereof) of a signal. > With > natural phenomena the 'generator' is actually the phenomenon in its > environment itself, I have to disagree, here, too. I understand that there's an "ontological wall" between an observer and a mechanism/generator. But, the phenomena is _never_ the generator at the same level of discourse. Yes, a phenomena at one level can be a generator for a higher level. But the way we use the words "generator" and "phenomenon" mean, by definition, a (possibly occult) cause (generator) of an apparent effect (phenomenon). The way to deal with that is to build multiple measures, some at the higher levels of the phenomena being studied and some at low levels to provide a finer grained (admittedly still phenomenal) aspect of the generators that lead to the higher level phenomena. If the low-level phenomena is commensurate with the high-level phenomena, then we have a good model of the map between generator and phenomena for that system under those conditions. > so the physical thing is the one and only place where > the design of the process is recorded. So, no, for physical system > emergence I see no reasonable way to make sense of examining "a complex map > between generator and phenomenon" as you would when interpreting a set of > coded instructions and the various runs of the instruction set on a > computer. Again, "emergence" is a vague and abused term. So, _if_ by "emergence", you mean "a complex map between generators and phenomena", then I understand you. But if you deny the existence or coherence of such a phrase when talking about extant physical systems, then I don't understand what you mean by "emergence". I'm not necessarily claiming that you're wrong or anything. I just don't understand what you mean. > So still, the question is what are the physical system signals that would > tell you that you're observing entirely new phenomena or emerging forms of > behavior (and need a new model)? Sometimes I've also interpreted that to > mean evidence of 'permanent' or 'irreversible' system change as a way to > narrow down what 'emergence' means. Let me try to paraphrase what you've asked in this immediately preceding paragraph. The question is which measures does one use to detect aperiodic behavior in a physical system? The answer to that question will be completely dependent on the physical system being studied, of course. But it's not a new or rarely asked question at all. We ask this question every time we study a system... even if that particular system (e.g. a pendulum) has been studied ad nauseam. So, that makes me think my paraphrase of what you're asking is wrong. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
