> When I return I will try to get back to Rikus's questions.
> This is indeed an excellent and stimulating conversation.
Please do, Erice. I remain intrigued and look forward to you perspective.
Regards,
Rikus
From: ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 5:34 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] (no subject)
These thoughts are not as well formed as I would like, but I am headed to a
conference this weekend, so here it goes:
The rules of the dualistic game (or the idealist game) require us to believe
that tasting salt involves something fundamentally beyond detecting a property
of the salt. That additional thing, the thing that is not a property of the
salt, but that is present "within us" when we taste salt, is labeled "qualia".
I'm not sure if Nick would be fully on board with this, but I think the logical
response to this line of thinking is denial of the problem: Tasting salt is
nothing above and beyond detecting a property of the salt, and thus the entire
category of phenomenon in question nonsensical. The only reasonable course of
investigation into "saltyness" is to try to find out what specific property of
salt was being detected when something tasted salty. With that information in
hand, you then say that "tasting salt" IS being responsive to that aspect of a
material. Again, if you don't like the behaviorist stuff, just say that
"tasting salt" IS experiencing that aspect of the material.
As for what seems to remain of the 1st person discussion... It must be
admitted that knowing requires a knower. However, a "first principle" of New
Realism is that no properties of the world get their essential nature from
being part of the knowledge relationship. Mountains are not made by being known
as mountains, a horse is exactly what it is whether or not someone knows it is
a horse, etc. Those examples (hopefully) seem straightforward and
unproblematic. However, in the same way, whatever it is to be angry, it is
exactly what it is whether or not someone knows they are angry, etc. Thus, in
line with the above argument, whatever it is to be salty, it must be something
about the salty thing... or a perhaps more properly, a property of the thing in
relation to the taster... but it is definitely not something uniquely about the
"I" that is doing the tasting.
Have a fun and productive weekend all. When I return I will try to get back
to Rikus's questions. This is indeed an excellent and stimulating conversation.
Thanks all,
Eric
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
