It's actually quite simple to me. Phenomena are the outputs of operators. (Phenomenon means "to appear", it is perceived, observable.) By contrast, a property is inherent in the system and exists regardless of any perspective (a.k.a stance) from which it may appear, be perceived, or be observed.
Measurement (or, more generically, the application of an operator[*]) is required for emergence. Nothing can emerge unless it is the result of some sort of measurement or, more specifically, observation. So, to speak of emergent phenomena is uncontroversial, as Roger points out. But to speak of emergent properties is confused (unless you go back and re-read what I've written before about circular causality). * Note that I'm NOT requiring that the operator, operands, or results require any type of observer, conscious or not. I believe operators would exist even if there were no life in the universe. Thus spake Nicholas Thompson circa 09-10-12 03:50 PM: > Glen Wrote: > > ====> Note that the above is about emergent phenomena, not emergent > properties. I still think the concept of an emergent property is either > useless, self-contradictory, or just confused.<==== > > Nick replies > > ===> Funny. I have this exactly the opposite way. I think I know what an > emergent property is, but I cannot imagine any more what I ever meant when > I spoke of an emergent phenomenon. Is there a chance we come up with a > common undestanding? > > To me, a property is emergent when it depends on the arrangement of the > parts that make up the whole. The problem with calling the whole thing "the > emergent" or "an emergent phenomenon" from my point of view is that some > the properties of an object can be emergent while others are not. So, an > object of conversation can be emergent in some of its particulars and not > in others. > > One escape from this dilemma, proposed by several of our authors, is to > simply declare that any "thing" with emergent properties is an emergent. > > But this solution makes "properties" primary, and so flies in the face of > what you said. > > It would be nice to get squared away on this. <===== -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
