This discussion is a wonderful example of what Doug is talking
about. Notice how the more imponderable the situation is the
more confident become our opinions. Think about the following
conundrum. Let's imagine -- for the purposes of argument -- that
health care is a genuine imponderable ... we NEVER will have
enough information, with enough precision, to know what we should
do about it. Given that assumption, what behavior is proper?
It's like that old distinction between Dionysians and
Apollonians. We all know that there are Dionysian Fools ... they
are the people found dancing to their ipods on the railroad
tracks with the train bearing down on them. But aren't there
also Apollonian Fools ... people who engage in carefully planning
and thoughtful argument about a situation what is too complex to
make a decision about?
Anyway, as a leader among Apollonian Fools and a Knee-Jerk
Liberal, in the bargain, allow me the following: I shudder
whenever anyone talks of a right to healthcare, because it sounds
so much like a Right to Health. The chances that I will die in
the next 20 years are almost 1.00. You do NOT want to get into
the business of guaranteeing my health.
Rights talk is madness.
nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu <mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu>)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
----- Original Message -----
*From:* ERIC P. CHARLES <mailto:e...@psu.edu>
*To: *friam <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Sent:* 2/14/2010 10:54:13 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Health care [was Sources of Innovation]
But Owen, we are NOT required to buy car insurance! It is an
if-then thing: If you want to drive, then you need insurance.
That doesn't map on well to health care.
I agree that the health care debate is not just about profit.
At least one other thing it is about is whether or not to
consider health care a "human right". I for one (and I
anticipate being skewered for saying it) don't understand
this line of reasoning. I am told that "it is unfair that
rich people get better medical care than poor people", and
what I hear is "it is unfair that rich people drive better
cars than poor people." If we really just wanted to make
health care cheaper we would up training for people to
self-diagnose and self-treat easy problems, we would reform
malpractice litigation, and we'd invest a boat load in grief
and end of life counseling so that people were, in general,
more accepting of death (their own and other's). If we wanted
reform in the industry, the best we should be pushing for is
to enforce contracts so that the insurance companies pay out
what they are supposed to.
Insurance is a business. It is a gambling game, where you try
to get people to give you more money than you think you will
have to pay out. It is true that some times insurance
companies make insane profits, but it doesn't take too many
people who cost them a million dollars each to shift things
around. The basic model for any insurance situation should be
to give a security blanket to people who are not at much risk
(i.e., give healthy people insurance against crippling
disasters). You know, like the home owner's insurance you
don't go running to every time your toilet is stopped up, but
you are glad you have if there is a bad fire. And even if you
think that people have the right to health care, how can
anyone argue that people should be guaranteed the right to be
insured?!? Car insurance companies turn down people who are
high risk, ditto home owner's insurance, flood insurance,
business insurance, etc., etc., how is health care any different?
The whole medical situation in this country is crazy, I got
in a 15 minute long argument with a doctor who wouldn't tell
me how much a procedure cost, only that my insurance wouldn't
cover it. The notion that I would consider simply paying for
something the insurance didn't cover made no sense to her.
Blah,
Eric
P.S. Aesthetically, I would actually be much less offended by
fully socialized medicine - take the business out of it, and
have the state run everything - just stop trying to tell
perfectly reasonable businesses they can't follow simple and
intelligible business models.
On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 11:26 AM, *Owen Densmore
<o...@backspaces.net>* wrote:
I don't buy the health care debate being quite so one
sided. Certainly there is self interest in the insurance
world, but there is equal opposing interest.
Businesses both large and small realize health care in
other countries is subsidizing their competition. Thus
Detroit was first in line to lobby for health care.
Doctors too are lobbying against the absurd
malpractice litigation which has become a barrier to
practice.
There are a few steps that could be made that would get
little resistance from the corporate devils you paint.
For example, why not require people to pay for a
reasonable insurance plan? We are required to do so for
car insurance. Our current practice drives folks to use
the emergency room for their doctor at a huge and silly
additional cost.
So: 1) Require universal health care insurance. But 2)
Remove preconditions. See the yin/yang? Insurance
companies have already said that pair would work for
them, as have the AMA/doctors. And yes, 3) Subsidize
those who cannot afford the base rate. And 4) limit
malpractice litigation. It is claimed that just these 4
steps would reduce the cost of current health care and
increase businesses competitiveness significantly. And
properly put in place the right market counter forces to
the evil corporations.
We ourselves need to change. How many of us spend as
much on medical care as we do our cars? In my
calculations, cars and their care still cost more.
Compare auto leasing costs for two cars for the standard
family and insurance for same and they're surprisingly
close. Add upkeep of the car and they are way ahead.
-- Owen
On Feb 14, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Pamela,
I think the healthcare issue goes way beyond just the
usual corporate profit protection, pay for play
political game. Look at how polarized the nation has
become over just this issue alone. Look at how many
people /don't/ believe that the healthcare issue is
really about healthcare insurance industry profit
protection.
We truly are a nation of idiots. We deserve Rush
Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, and Pat Robertson.
Model that, if you like. The agents in the
individual based simulation won't need much
sophistication.
--Doug
On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Pamela McCorduck
<pam...@well.com <#>> wrote:
When Kennedy envisioned going to the moon, no
lobby existed to fight ferociously for the sole
right to take the profits from going to the moon,
and the sole right to decide who gets to go.
If you read the not-very-deep subtext in this
fight, you will see that it's not about giving
better healthcare to Americans (which we
desperately need) but about protecting the
enormous profits of the healthcare insurance
industry. It's dressed up in "right to choose,"
and "privacy between doctor and patient," and
"keep the government out of medical care," but
it's really about profit protection. From several
different and reliable sources (one of them a
congressional candidate) I have heard that since
early last summer, the insurance and
pharmaceuticals industries have been spending
over $1 million per day on lobbying. It
continues. You can do the arithmetic.
The media regularly reports on how much better,
cheaper, and more effective medical plans are all
around the developed world. It doesn't penetrate
$1 million-plus per day.
On Feb 13, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
Where does all this whining about health care
come from? Everyone in Germany has a health
insurance, it is obligatory. There is general
agreement here that the European (and esp.
the German) health care system is better
and more social than the one in the US.
The USA obviously needs a better health care
system. Where is the American optimism and
the "i believe we can do it" spirit? I've heard
that optimism and positive thinking is a typical
American attitude.
America is lacking a vision, something like
Kennedy's vision to bring a man to the moon
and back. Military and NASA won't do it
this time. A vision or a common dream which
would foster technological innovation. Schmidt
mentioned "renewable energy" and green
technology. What about a clean L.A. with
fresh air? A large scale scientific initiative
to create the first AI would be another one.
America would have the resources to do it, it
has the companies with the largest data centers.
It should be proud of Google, Microsoft,
Amazon, and Apple. It is difficult to understand
why it disputes about health care so long.
-J.
----- Original Message ----- From: Roger
Critchlow
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sources of Innovation
[...] We're too busy defending ourselves from
hedge fund vampires and health care ghouls to
worry about growth. Say what you will about
the undead, they steal their profits fair and
square and invest them in the rule of law.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's
College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps athttp://www.friam.org
Eric Charles
Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
Eric Charles
Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps athttp://www.friam.org
