Wow. I have to get behind myself! Nick -----Original Message----- From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:26 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] just faith
Dear Nick I think the both of us are talking at cross purposes here. I know next to nothing about philosophy. Perhaps somebody like Richard Dawkins could help you here. In my faith (I do wish the Islamists, Mormons, Sikhs, etc on this list would speak out) . the "Devil" is all that is "known" (and hence wrong) whereas "God" is that which is "unknown" / unknowable. The more we become knowledgeable the less wise/efficient we are. Islam apparently has a similar view (although perhaps not for the same reasons as us). Images on Television are "devilish" (whereas those gazillion black and white pixellated dots on a blank channel are "God"). I recall a SF short story about a programmer who starts off decoding this seemingly random white noise with a BASIC progam on an Apple II and works it up eventually to a supercomputer where he starts getting pseudo-gibberish possibly from God. In sum: Philosophy falls in the realm of Devils ... and your name is very apt. Sarbajit On 9/17/12, Nicholas Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Sarbajit, > > I think I believe that everybody HAS a philosophical system. The > variables are how explicit it is and whether the holder of the system > is capable of engaging in analysis and critique. > > If somebody says they don't have a philosophical position, it > generally means that they have one and they don't want to talk about > it. A non-philosophical person is just a person who is rigid in his philosophy. > > As to religion, can I be religious if God plays no part in my thought > or discourse, either as an assertion or a denial? Here I am prone to > confusion because I may confuse religion with metaphysics. I > definitely believe that there are principles operating in the universe > that are not in my immediate experience yet can be called upon to > explain my experience. I would be hard pressed to say what those > principles ARE, but I am pretty sure they are back > there somewhere. Some of them are the kind of things that physicists > know, > but I don't. But not all. One of them might be The World is an OK > Place, and that, if we keep tinkering and poking at it, things will get better. > Another is the idea that, on average, thinking about stuff is better > than not thinking about it. A third is the idea that Things Have > Causes. These are all certainly elements of metaphysics, but are they religion? > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > I think that this way of being > > -----Original Message----- > From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On > Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 10:42 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] just faith > > > > Well atheism would only convey a negation of belief (in God) to me. My > religious model has no problem accommodating atheists, and contrawise > I have no problem with an atheist's belief model built around no-God > (or Gods or gods or GOD ...). As long as it functions its irrelevant > whether a car (or > religion) runs on gasoline or horse-manure or hot air. > > > > My religion (loosely called "Adi Dharm") originally reduced the 330 > million "gods" of Hinduism down to one ("Brahma" the absolute > reality). Having done that very successfully we were forced to go > underground in the previous century, and a not insignificant portion of our adherents became "godless" > Communists. Today we don't have a conception of a God as a father / > creator figure. Instead we conceive God as "the" principle which > regulates existence/ the uinivers/ multiverse/ parallel worlds or > whatever. Deus is the "mechanism behind the clock" and not the "clock > maker". The issue is whether atheists also acknowledge that there is a > principle (or law . or set of laws) which govern "their" universe. > > > > I agree with Eric, newer generations are not interested in > philosophical systems any more or artificial religious categories. > > There are too many other things going on in their lives. > > > > On 9/17/12, Nicholas Thompson < <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Sarbajit, > >> > >> Given your range of experiences with the religious, I am curious for > >> your reflections on atheism as a religion. When push comes to shove, > >> are we atheists any the less religious, in the very broadest senses >> of > that term? > >> In what ways? > >> > >> Nick > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> friam-boun...@redfish.com > <mailto:[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]> > [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On > >> Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy > >> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:51 AM > >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] just faith > >> > >> Platinga's view is fairly well aligned with the beliefs of my own > >> faith even though our "God" may be different. We all develop our own > >> models of reality, apparently the trick is to ensure that these >> models > >> are robust enough accommodate everybody else's gremlins, devils, > >> zombies, or maulvis and still continue to function. > >> > >> > >> > >> I probably know more Muslim's personally then half the members on >> this > >> list. > >> My neighbour is a Muslim and I also employ Muslims. India is a >> secular > >> country whose 13% Muslim population is free to migrate anywhere in >> the > >> world > >> which will take them in - not many do. India's Muslims when asked >> (by > >> foreigners such as the BBC or the NYT) usually volunteer they >> consider > >> themselves to be better off in India vis-a-vis their brethren in >> Muslim > >> countries like Pakistan or Iran (notwithstanding the occasional bouts >> of > >> communal frenzy which develop over pigs feet or beef entrails being >> thrown > >> by the butchers of each community). > >> > >> > >> > >> India was ruled for over 200 years by Muslims as was China (Yuan >> dynasty). > >> America probably needs to experience Muslim rule for some time to >> develop > a > >> sustainable and robust reality model. The "Dune" SF series was >> heavily > >> influenced by Islamic models. > >> > >> > >> > >> OT: Interestingly, "Islamic science fiction" is an emergent >> discipline in > >> the Arabic world to attract younger followers to the world of the >> Taliban > >> and Al Qaeda. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sarbajit > >> > >> > >> > >> On 9/17/12, Roger Critchlow < < <mailto:r...@elf.org> >> mailto:r...@elf.org> > <mailto:r...@elf.org> r...@elf.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Reading > >> > >>> < > <http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/sep/27/philosopher-defe > n> > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/sep/27/philosopher-defen > > > >> >> <http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/sep/27/philosopher-def >> en> > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/sep/27/philosopher-defen > >> > >>> ds-religion/ > >> > >>> was > >> > >>> a rather odd experience this week, mixed in with Sam Bacile, the > >> > >>> Salafists, the zombies, and whatever. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The review is by a non-believer (Thomas Nagel) who finds the book, > >> > >>> written by a believer (Alvin Plantinga), very interesting, even >>> though > >> > >>> he doesn't believe it. Plantinga's day job is analytic philosophy, >>> so > >> > >>> he gets very precisely into what he thinks it is that his faith and > >> > >>> his beliefs do for him. Finally, the main argument is sort a grand > >> > >>> slam of creationism: we wouldn't be able to correctly figure out how > >> > >>> the world works if the deity, more specifically the deity that >>> Plantinga > >> believes in, wasn't helping us > >> > >>> along the way. Why would natural selection by itself care anything > >>> about > >> > >>> the truth? > >> > >>> > >> > >>> As the reviewer says: "The interest of this book, especially for > >> > >>> secular readers, is its presentation from the inside of the point of > >> > >>> view of a philosophically subtle and scientifically informed >>> theist-an > >> > >>> outlook with which many of them will not be familiar." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -- rec -- > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, >> archives, > >> unsubscribe, maps at < <http://www.friam.org> http://www.friam.org> > <http://www.friam.org> http://www.friam.org > >> > >> > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <http://www.friam.org> > http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
