Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Gary -
There is a lot of gray area between standing up for principles 
(openness to new ideas, value of science and education, respect for 
rights of those with whom you disagree) and holier-than-thou 
self-righteousness, which is what I believe the "country folk" see as 
"elite". Step too far into that gray area and you get shot down, 
perhaps justifiably so.
I suppose the key for me is that I feel a lot less responsible for 
worrying about these yokels "feelings" when I feel like part of the 
underclass than I do when I feel like part of the overclass (elites?).  
Not all ARE yokels in the colloquial sense and by many measures *I* am a 
big yokel myself... but you get the drift.  Oddly the (not so) loyal 
opposition doesn't seem to have any such principles, they seem too often 
to be "kick em while they are down" types, which allows me a bit of 
satisfaction in "kicking THEM while *I* am down" or perhaps more aptly, 
"kicking back".   The satisfaction, I suppose, of standing up to a bully.

But the risk of this is always "becoming the bully".  In my former life 
as a libertarian/conservative, I felt that "liberal elites" WERE being 
bullies themselves, and by golly I still often feel that way.  I think 
for example, that Hillary and the DNC bullied their way over the top of 
Bernie and Jill, both of whom ARE pretty aligned with the DNC's espoused 
principles.   But compared to their opposition, they are pretty mild, is 
the point.

Steve, I haven't looked much at mesh networking, but it looks like 
nodes need to be within hundreds of meters of each other, which is 
definitely not my use case. And the Mesh Potato stuff seems to be 
mostly for voice, not IP. If we want to discuss this more, it would 
probably be better suited for a new topic on WedTech.
Sure, or we can take it offline.   I think I brought it up on WedTech 
over a year ago when I was working it actively and didn't hear any 
interest.   This class of mesh *does* require fairly close proximity, 
but rather than hang, for example, a dozen Ubiquiti links on a dozen 
households in an "island", one would backbone in with one or two and 
then mesh out from there.   It is also about community building and 
being good neighbors.  The fundamental tech IS IP, with VOIP on top, 
they just make the VOIP very easy and very transparent and in some 
contexts that is the main thing needed by the folks using it.

- Steve

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com 
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:

    Gary -

    I don't know if this is my own narcissistic self-indulgence, but
    as a one-time conservative (libertarian?) I am now so very aligned
    with the left *by* the rise of the right  such that I feel deeply
    and passionately offended by this right-wing populism that is
    sweeping us.   I feel more self-rightous about it than I ever
    have.  Having them take power so roughly and rudely and against
    their own self-interest has triggered me in a way that reminds me
    of the way so many former smokers become virulently intolerant of
    smoking.

    I am trying to heed the warning of not losing to my enemy by
    becoming him... by falling into the trap of thinking the only way
    to defend against hate is with hate, the seduction of fighting
    fire with fire.

    But I do feel a certain sanctimonious pleasure in stepping up nose
    to nose with virtually every Trumpian in my circle and daring them
    to try to do a victory dance on my head or the heads of those I
    care about or identify with.    I have never enjoyed the role of
    the underdog quite so acutely before... it has a certain
    deliciousness to it.  I am responding with a very calm but firm NO
    to virtually every aspect of their agenda, most especially
    xenophobia, misogyny, misecology, and extractive/extortive
    capitalism.

    I believe *we* can be an overwhelmingly powerful "silent majority"
    in these times if we stand firm behind our beliefs (as varied in
    quality and degree as they may be).

    - Steve

    PS.  have you looked at the world of Mesh Potato for 3rd world
    networking?  I am vaguely set to bring that class of technology to
    my colleagues in Panama and in Kenya when the time is ripe.


    On 1/28/17 1:18 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
    I agree that we shouldn't have to feign interest in others'
    interests. I'm not ready to pretend to like country music, go to
    church, praise military adventures that I don't agree with, tell
    gays they are going to hell and that god will heal them. At the
    same time, I don't see how it is productive to make fun of
    peoples' faith and cultural tastes, although I've been plenty
    guilty of that myself, feeding my own ego. Liberals can be just
    as intolerant as conservatives, and we will only make progress
    when we start to respect other peoples' views. Sometimes that
    just means sitting quietly and not responding.

    On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Marcus Daniels
    <mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

        Well, I find this article depressing but plausible. 
        Specifically,

        Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:

        “But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that
        they needed to actually go to the slums and the countryside
        <https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not
        for a speech or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to
        dance salsa — to show they were Venezuelans, too, that they
        weren’t just dour scolds and could hit a baseball, could tell
        a joke that landed. That they could break the tribal divide,
        come down off the billboards and show that they were real.
        This is not populism by other means. It is the only way of
        establishing your standing. It’s deciding not to live in an
        echo chamber. To press pause on the siren song of polarization.”

        Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or
        play baseball.  I have different interests.   I shouldn’t
        have to pretend.  They won’t pretend to me, that’s for sure. 
        This is not about polarization; this is about not wanting to
        get pulled into that attractor.   We have different lives.
        That should be fine.  This is the United States and
        individualism is kind of a big thing here.

        Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this
        problem is a different matter. That is about appearances not
        reality.

        Marcus

        *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
        <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of "Robert J.
        Cordingley" <rob...@cirrillian.com
        <mailto:rob...@cirrillian.com>>
        *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
        Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
        *Date: *Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM


        *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
        <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
        *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

        The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a
        Venezuelan on what to do and mostly what not to do.

        
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did
        
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did>

        Robert C

        On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

            Ok Steve,

            The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

            I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that
            I can do with my limited set of skills: Write Apple and
            tell them to stop calling new products “I-this” and
            “I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.

            You must have something in your tool kit more effective
            than that!

            Nick

            Nicholas S. Thompson

            Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

            Clark University

            http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
            <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

            *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
            <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Steven
            A Smith
            *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
            *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
            <friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
            *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




                What can WE hobbits do?

            Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

            Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree
            that the Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a
            (focused) reflection of our own worst qualities, and
            *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it
            will help with the greater picture.

            - Candide


                Nick

                Nicholas S. Thompson

                Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

                Clark University

                http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
                <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

                *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
                <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of
                *Jochen Fromm
                *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
                *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
                Group <friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>;
                Friam <Friam@redfish.com> <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>
                *Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>
                <mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'
                <bjs...@yahoo.com> <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix
                McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com>
                <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'
                <grantfra...@earthlink.net>
                <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
                *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

                Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can
                win with is true.”  And if he wins with what we call
                “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.

                If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I
                would say peaceful protests are the right way. The
                women's march was impressive, and the rebellion of
                the social media managers from the national parks is
                really refreshing. Who would have thought that the
                national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard who
                becomes alive.

                In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures
                like the house elves that beat the evil in the end.
                In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits that
                beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like
                Ken Bone are the Hobbits of the 21st century. The
                modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who
                support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and
                hope to get a bit rich and famous along the way.

                People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr.
                T-Rump is Sauron and Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith.
                Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will
                he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit
                Twitter completely? If we all stop following and
                listening him he loses his power. This includes the
                senior Republican politicians who do not speak up
                against him because they hope for a job in his
                administration.

                Cheers,

                Jochen

                Sent from my Tricorder

                -------- Original message --------

                From: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net
                <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>

                Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00)

                To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>>

                Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net
                <mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>>, 'Bruce Simon'
                <bjs...@yahoo.com <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>>, 'Dix
                McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com
                <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>>, 'Grant Franks'
                <grantfra...@earthlink.net
                <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>>

                Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

                Hi everybody,

                I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we
                seem to keep coming back to this topic, even when we
                are  talking about globalism.

                So.  Let me just share one thought. I have said a
                hundred times that I think the great achievement of
                the Right in my life time has been to problematize
                (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of
                the elements of that consensus was that there is a
                truth of most matters and if we gather inclusively,
                talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully,
                investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to
                it.  What was, at the time of my coming of age, the
                shared foundation of argument, became over last 50
                years, /a position in the argument. /The alternative
                to this Deweyan position seems to be something like,
                “/There is no truth of the matter; there is only the
                exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by
                whatever means, wins the truth. Truth is not
                something that is arrived at; it is won.”/

                So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not
                lying.  On the contrary, he does not share the view
                of discourse that makes lying a possibility.  From
                Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is
                true.” Hence, if he wins with what we call “a lie”,
                it is true.

                I feel we are straying along the edge of some
                *Nietzschean *chasm here.  Unfortunately  I haven’t
                read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in Wikipedia,
                led me to The Parable of the Madman
                <http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp>.
                And THAT led me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen
                <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>, about
                marketing execs in the 60’s, was written with
                Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is ever a
                domain in which the truth is that which wins, it
                would be marketing.

                So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by
                demonstrating that he lies. It has to be by
                demonstrating that liars don’t win.

                Heavy lift.

                Nick

                Nicholas S. Thompson

                Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

                Clark University

                http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
                <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>





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