OUCH!
The person who said the internet is forever sure knew a thing. Why we need to resurrect these posts, in particular, is unclear to me. Suffice it to say, I cannot recreate the context in which I would say such nasty things so nastily. But the evidence that I did is overwhelming. So. All I can do is apologize again. I have learned so much over the years from talking with glen and marcus. Much of what they talk about is still foreign to me, but in the last year I feel I am understanding more, and would hate to have that channel gummed up by digging up this trash. But that is the consequence of having said stupid things; one is thereafter and forever dependent upon the grace and maturity of others. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 2:04 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A PolyMath by any other name... Okay, resurrecting this four plus year old discussion because it matched a search for vagus. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807379/#B20 reports that electrical stimulation of the outer ear can stimulate the vagus nerve and has positive results for treating depression. It's hitting a spot that acupuncture uses to treat depression. -- rec -- On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:22 AM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote: Steve, Thank you for not chastising me, as I surely deserved. I want to take this opportunity to renew my apology to the list. If you asked me to think deeply, I would say that boredom is actually one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. A person who is bored by a topic is just a person without the resources or energy to find what is interesting about it. Obviously I, the pot, who has been known the regale this list with commentary on Elevated Mixed Layers, should not be calling any pots black. Thanks, Steve, as always, for your good will. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:36 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: [FRIAM] A PolyMath by any other name... Nick! I'm surprised *anything* bores the living crap out of you! I hear tell of you staring for hours at water swirling down a drain, considering the philosophical and psychological implications of such, and even more hours listening to the squawks of Ravens! That said, I have to say that Marcus' and Glen's conversation here was far enough above my head that I can't imagine finding the time to noodle out enough of the reserved lexicon to do more than gape at it awkwardly. I have a good friend who is a former AstroPhysicist who has reinvented himself a few times as a High Performance Simulation Scientist, then Virtual Reality Researcher, then Nueroscience Researcher. He is definitely a PolyBore to anyone without experience or interest in those fields, but the hoot of it all is that one of his best and oldest collaborators has stuck with "Applied Math" for 50 years and he calls HIM a "MathHole"... they are finishing up a multi-year book project on their theory of Neural Function based in Category Theory. I suspect even people who Neurophysiology and Category Theory find them Polybores! I do like the duality of PolyMath/PolyBore... we might have more than a few such creatures here on this list! - Steve Hi Owen, How’s your summer. I note that not only can glen and company participate in a conversation with me that bores the living crap out of you, but they can also participate in a conversation with you that bores the living crap out of me. But I am not threatening to pick up my marbles and go home. I think it’s in the nature of things. They are multitalented bores. Polybores, we might call them. I guess being a polybore is the other side of being a polymath. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 7:41 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels? Thanks! Fascinating. -- Owen On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Parks, Raymond <rcpa...@sandia.gov <mailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov> > wrote: The original articles/blogs are from the U of Cambridge Xen folks and a somewhat buzzword lovin' sysadmin. The current trend in using someone else's computer (SEC, more commonly called cloud) is LInux containers and docker. The articles predict that the future is unikernels. A unikernel is application specific, like containers, but in the form of a monolithic VM that includes the specific application and necessary kernel services for that app. At least two of the current unikernel projects use functional languages - OCaml and Haskell. The Xen model is for a developer to specify the kernel services they need, develop the application code, develop the configuration code, and the whole thing gets turned into a monolithic VM that runs in the Xen hypervisor. In theory, this makes for greater efficiency and less chance of the tail wagging the dog. By that latter, I mean that one of the major issues in securing computer systems of systems is that one gets all of a system one includes (i.e DNS Bind) even though one uses one small feature. That means all of the vulnerabilities as well as all the features that are not used. As I said in a previous post, this is a reinvention (for hypervisors) of IBM VM and CSM - the latter being a minimalist kernel with, usually, a single application. The downside of monolithic VMs is that any change requires a complete rebuild of the VM - even minor configuration changes that are the equivalent of environment variables. In a SEC environment, for example, adding a static or CDN to the list of sources for a web server will require a rebuild. Alternatively, of course, one could simply allow the web-server unikernel to invoke scripts from any web-site recursively - but then an attacker simply inserts an advertisement that invokes malware and we're no better off than before. The idea of unikernels is not bad nor is it new - but the benefits will probably not be as great as the current promises. The UX will not be different for the end-user although it might be somewhat better for the content provider. It's not clear to me that the visionaries have thought about this outside of the WWW. For example, I recently read an article about how NetFlix worked hard to be able to provide streaming video with SSL encryption. They started with their standard server and added SSL - the performance hit made that impractical. Eventually, they found a configuration of VMs and infrastructure that made the performance hit acceptable. A unikernel that only served SSL-encrypted video would be more efficient than their current VMs running a general-purpose OS plus video streaming software. But configuration changes (newly added caching locations, links that are down, et cetera) would be the bane of a unikernel NetFlix. Each time BGP reports a change, either the video streaming unikernel would need to be rebuilt or there would need to be another layer of unikernel that dispatches requests to the video streaming unikernel VMs. But that dispatcher would either need to be reconfigured or there would need to be another unikernel that tracks network connectivity changes and informs the dispatcher - and now we still have configuration changes and a complex system of unikernels that exist to make it possible. The Internet is a dynamic system that constantly changes - and any system that uses the Internet needs to adapt to constant change. The two ways to do that with unikernels are to have the meta on meta layers I imagine in the previous paragraph or to change the VM unikernels on the fly so the user will eventually get directed to a correctly configured unikernel. That latter means there will be performance hits - how bad those will be is TBD. Ray Parks Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer V: 505-844-4024 <tel:505-844-4024> M: 505-238-9359 <tel:505-238-9359> P: 505-951-6084 <tel:505-951-6084> On Aug 11, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: I'm so outta this conversation! Could one of us give a brief explanation of unikernels and the related tech being discussed? On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:49 PM, glen ep ropella <g...@tempusdictum.com <mailto:g...@tempusdictum.com> > wrote: OK. But what I'm still missing is this: if unikernels are more domain- and/or task-specific, then the dev environment will branch, perhaps quite a bit. I.e. one dev environment for many deployables. We end up with not just the original (false?) dichotomy between config and compiled, but meta-config and, perhaps, meta-compiled. And that may even have multiple layers, meta-meta. So, while I agree pwning the devop role allows the attacker to infect the deployables, the attacks have to be sophisticated enough to survive that branching to eventually achieve the attacker's objective. I.e. "closeness" in terms of automation doesn't necessarily mean "closeness" in terms of total cost of attack. It just seems that the more objective-specific the deployable(s), the less likely a hacked devops process will give the desired result. I'd expect a lot more failed integration/deployment attempts if my devops process was modified. But this is all too abstract, of course. The devil is in the particulars. On 08/11/2015 01:13 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: I would expect the dev environment to be closer if not actually in the same hypervisor. It's almost like the web-site we once attacked by using the java compiler on the web-site's computer sytem to modify the code in the web-site. Right now, with devops, the dev environment is probably not in the cloud/hypervisor. And, for unikernels that may also be true. But to deploy quickly in both devops and unikernel, there has to be a direct channel from dev to cloud. In more traditional environments, there's a dev server in a separate space, a testing server in its own environment (sometimes shared with production but not touching production data), and a production server. While traditional environments don't always follow the process well, in theory the flow is developers develop on a development network with the dev server, roll their system into the testing server which runs alongside the production server with a copy of the production data and processing real or test transactions, and finally install the tested version on the production server. From my standpoint, that means I can attack the production server directly or the development server on a separate network. There has to be connectivity, but it's likely to be filtered, if only to prevent the development server from affecting the production environment. In devops and in future unikernel systems, the pace of change is, of necessity, much faster and the three roles are collapsed into one VM. The VM image is modified in place, given a new name so that rollback is possible, and the management software is told to use the new image instead of the old. One of the principles of cyberwarfare (as formulated in our paper of that name) is that some entity, somewhere, has the privileges to do whatever the attacker wants to do and the attacker's goal is to become that entity. In the case of devops and unikernel, that entity is the developer(s) who make(s) the changes to the VM. In traditional environments, the attacker might need to assume the privileges of several entities. -- glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847 <tel:971-255-2847> ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com This body part will be downloaded on demand. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
