This is the hubris that has got us into so much trouble! On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:00 AM Pieter Steenekamp < piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
> Yep, I would go for this one. IMO we are involved in a collective process > where communication, reason, and action are indeed possible and > flourishing. Sure there are risks, climate change being one but not the > only one. Humanity is still very fragile and vulnerable to existential > risks like climate change, a big meteor or comet hitting the earth, a big > sun flare causing major damage to our electricity distribution networks, > new very dangerous, and others. The end could come before I finish this > sentence. But on the positive side if you observe the progress that has > happened, I am very optimistic that we are on the path towards a better > future. > I am a big fan of David Deutsch. Apart from him being part of having > developed the first quantum computer algorithm ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch%E2%80%93Jozsa_algorithm) , his > views on infinite progress as per his book The Beginning of Infinity > resonates very well with me. > I quote about the book from wikipedia ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beginning_of_Infinity) > “Deutsch views the Enlightenment of the 18th century as near the beginning > of an infinite sequence of purposeful knowledge creation. Knowledge here > consists of information with good explanatory function that has proven > resistant to falsification. Any real process is physically possible to > perform provided the knowledge to do so has been acquired. The > Enlightenment set up the conditions for knowledge creation which disrupted > the static societies that previously existed. These conditions are the > valuing of creativity and the free and open debate that exposed ideas to > criticism to reveal those good explanatory ideas that naturally resist > being falsified due to their having basis in reality. Deutsch points to > previous moments in history, such as Renaissance Florence and > Plato's Academy in Golden Age Athens, where this process almost got > underway before succumbing to their static societies' resistance to change.” > > Pieter > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 01:05, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > >> Nick writes: >> >> "So, in these sorts of situations, people tend to sort themselves out >> into Dionysians and Apollonians, the former declaring that we're probably >> fucked and we might as well stay warm, run around in our cars, and burn >> all the coal we can, and the later declaring that we have a chance to get >> it right and we should take our best shot." >> >> How about one step back: Are we involved in a collective process where >> communication, reason, and action are possible? If we are not, then >> democracy is nothing more than a temporary way to keep the peace and to >> diffuse a need many have for (a feeling of) agency. It is a rearrangement >> of deck chairs because soon the real shit will be coming down. If all >> living creatures are just riding a wave, a process unfolding and going >> wherever it must go, some may recognize they have no control and rationally >> opt for the Dionysian approach. Other living things like koalas and >> kangeroos and polar bears die by the millions, helpless and afraid. At >> least the Dionysian gets the luxury of recognizing, "Yep, this is it." It >> just depends on what kind of influence *can* work. At one point the >> British Empire ruled over a quarter of the world. Now it isn't even >> possible to get people to dispose of their plastic bottles properly. I >> think the Apollonians better take charge ASAP, if that's what they are >> going to do. >> >> Marcus >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣ < >> geprope...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49 PM >> *To:* FriAM <friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Murdoch and Trump >> >> Nah. I reject the dichotomy. I consider myself both D and an A, but in >> different domains. And I think it might be reasonable to time slice between >> A & D. My sister's ex used to say "We play hard and we work hard" ... >> indicating that they were both D & A, maybe even simultaneously, depending >> on how you interpret that. >> >> The more interesting thing about AGW is whether or not one *must* be a >> believer or a "skeptic" [†], and nothing in between. As a dyed in the wool >> agnostic, I neither believe nor am I a "skeptic", from gun control to >> abortion to AGW. I also don't like Britney Spears' music. But if she showed >> up at my door and asked me to ... oh, I don't know ... create a >> visualization package for her music, I would definitely do it, which would >> mean listening to her music a LOT for days on end. You don't have to agree >> with a mission in order to contribute to the mission. >> >> So, it seems to me to be *unreasonable* to run around complaining about >> how so many people are AGW believers. So what? If you don't want to work on >> the problem, go work on something else. It's just weird how the "skeptics" >> are so obsessed. E.g. >> >> https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_Lomborg >> >> >> [†] In quotes to indicate that many people abuse the term. I am a >> skeptic, but not a "skeptic" ... if you grok the gist. >> >> On 1/21/20 12:17 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: >> > While I am "in", it seems to me that a distinction is beginning to >> evolve here between whether a reasonable person CAN doubt Anthropogenic >> Global Warming (AGW) and whether such a person SHOULD doubt AGW. I think >> reasonable people could argue whether we are in a period of AGW (400yrs), a >> period of global cooling (11,000 yrs) or a spectacularly fragile and >> geologically unprecedented period of climate stability (also about >> 11kyrs). So, in these sorts of situations, people tend to sort themselves >> out into Dionysians and Apollonians, the former declaring that we're >> probably fucked and we might as well stay warm, run around in our cars, >> and burn all the coal we can, and the later declaring that we have a chance >> to get it right and we should take our best shot. I am, as you all know, >> with the Apollonians. We are, after all, the choosing species, the species >> that can knowingly chart it's own path. So we “should” choose; in fact, we >> /will/ chose, even if we only do so by >> > choosing not to choose. >> > >> > >> > >> > But it's clear, now why the debate is so intractable. The debate >> between Dionysians and Apollonians has been in progress for centuries, so >> it's no surprise that we are struggling with it now. >> > >> > >> > >> > I hear some of you formulating an argument that whether we are D’s or >> A’s should be determined by the shape of the hazard space. As a >> collective, I think we FRIAMMERS are particularly well positioned and >> qualified to have that discussion, and I hope it will continue. >> >> -- >> ☣ uǝlƃ >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA merlelefk...@gmail.com <merlelef...@gmail.com> mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
