I learned about all those symmetry groups a couple of years ago (When was it Jon?) and I remember almost nothing. But I can state the Heine-Borel theorem, Stokes' theorem and others in complex analysis and algebra that I learned about 55 years ago.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 4:16 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > Yeah, on one hand (they are) guilty as charged. > > On the other hand, nah, only mathematicians name things in gzip so that > the names are maximally compressed. (By which I mean, referring to every > theorem by the name of whoever proved it, so you have not a clue what it is > about.) I wish I could bring to mind some lines in textbooks from my > freshman or sophomore algebra classes, where at the end of a long and > completely uninterpretable sentence, the author wrapped with “to which we > apply a theorem of Darbou.” My friends and I, all getting bombed out of > existence by the course, hit that line and shook our heads in unison. > Laughing in the way that late at night ends up in crying. While I can’t > remember what the rest of the topic was, I can still summon the feeling of > hopelessness as if it were yesterday. (It may have been yesterday; what > was I trying to read that day?….) > > In that respect, I am fine with “flavor SU(3) and color SU(3)”, and do not > have trouble remembering which is which. > > Also, surely superstrings aren’t as cynical and Machiavellian as you > suggest, right? There was a symmetry that was encompassing enough that it > applied in parallel across all the other symmetries known at the time, and > so they called it supersymmetry. In a Germanic language that doesn’t seem > evil. When applied to gravity it wound up as super-gravity (not that it > was better). I guess, like teenagers say when explaining to their parents, > one thing led to another, and now I really need to get to a clinic. > > I do wish you had been Dawkins’s publisher, though. _That_ would have > been a title. > > EricS > > > On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:07 PM, Eric Charles <eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > I agree with everything said in there email focusing on: > > And I also think you are right that the namers meant the names to carry > weight. (Though I also think most thought is a bit hurried and careless, > and gives itself more credit than is earned.) > > > However, as I am fond of saying: *It's worse than that.* > > They aren't just picking the names to carry weight, the are picking the > names exactly to try to gain traction off of how sexy it sounds, even when > they know they know that they would deny all the sexy implications if > pressed. And it doesn't bother them that anyone hearing the term will think > the phenomenon is sexier than it actually is, because that is a feature, > not a bug. > > There is a reason Dawkins titled his book "The Selfish Gene" rather than > "Things that stay around are things that stayed around." > > There is a reason people called it "superstring theory" instead of > "High-dimensional math you will never understand and which we might never > be able to test." > > It wasn't JUST about verbal expedience or rushed thinking. If you wanted > expedience you would just label it Theory Option 78, or TO78 if you wanted > it even shorter. You could do that, sure, but it would never get you a > mention on Freakonomics radio. > > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 1:32 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote: > >> I’m actually quite on board with your wish to make these questions more >> interesting than they may have started out, Nick. >> >> And I also think you are right that the namers meant the names to carry >> weight. (Though I also think most thought is a bit hurried and careless, >> and gives itself more credit than is earned.) >> >> The interesting struggle will be that the original calculation was in a >> way rather small, compared to the metaphor that many hope can be spun from >> it. >> >> Or perhaps said another way, maybe many of these things that have weight >> to compel as we experience them in life, are pointers to little mechanics >> below the surface that, in its own terms, is a small thing. >> >> I know that in each paper I write, I imagine getting at a big idea, and >> realize that the most I have done is a small calculation. So there is a >> foot in each boat…. >> >> Best, >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> < >> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Sorry everybody. I seem to be out of my depth in many pools at once. >> >> I really like Eric’s analysis. >> >> I still want to protest abit. I think the dynamic relation between the >> physical concept and the physicist’s humanistic metaphor is much more >> interesting than this analysis would suggest. Physicists use those >> metaphors for a reasons, cognitive and communicatory. And humanists are >> right to explore their implications. Otherwise, it would be fair for the >> humanist to turn to the physicist and say, “Shut up and calculate.” >> >> The paradox of development (AKA epigenisis) is that there are all sorts >> of futures that can be known pretty precisely about a developing individual >> yet they are totally unknown to the individual that is developing. It has >> to do with our discussion of inten*S*ion, a few months back. >> >> It may also be time for one of you to be delegated to “elder” me, in the >> quaker tradition. “Now, Nick, ….” >> >> N . >> >> N >> >> Nicholas Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >> Clark University >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,8pikIqjsWmNuBHfzE3VVLQF4_vkvnGX1oPfmWg4qJVbO9ts2bygQUBET758DUPmA4dH0McR2MMXhK_cL-slNT6tfSaWx6GP41uIIowPT-1XJk62VKA,,&typo=1> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2020 10:00 AM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats >> >> I want to somehow say sigh and sigh on this thread. >> >> It comes somehow straight out of Monty Python (Blessed are the >> cheesemakers….) >> >> 1. Some physicists figure out how to do a calculation, showing that some >> parts can go dynamically into an organized state, appealing to a >> combination of their own shapes and laws of large numbers for events that >> happen, and they don’t need to have the organized form imposed by any >> outside boundary conditions beyond the very low-level rules for how the >> events are sampled. They already knew this happens in equilibrium, because >> that is how anything freezes. But here they are seeing it in a dynamical >> context, where the ordered form happens to be more ordered than the states >> they could produce from somehow-similar components in equilibrium. >> >> 2. Physicsts, like everyone, are usually impatient and don’t want to have >> to recite the whole operational meaning of something every time they want >> to refer to it in the course of saying something else. >> >> 3. So the physicists come up with a tag. It should be sort of evocative, >> sort of catchy, and easy to remember. Aha! “Self-organization”, to keep >> in mind that the organization is resulting from low-level local features, >> and not from the boundary conditions imposed on the system beyond that >> local stuff. >> >> 4. Nick encounters the term. It happens to contain two words about which >> he cares very very much, so to him they are not mere hackage generated by >> some physicists, but freighted with meaning. >> >> 5. Nick starts a thread: Which self? Is it the same self before and >> after? Is “organized” here a transitive or an intransitive verb? If >> transitive, what is the object? Can the same referent be both object and >> subject of a transitive verb? Does that make the verb reflexive? What are >> the implications for monists? For dualists? >> >> 6. Friam is willing to engage. >> >> 7. I write a long tedious email, trying to remind the humanists that the >> most important character trait of physicists is impatience. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:03 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >> wrote: >> >> Nick, >> >> *" I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self >> that is* >> *assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled."* >> >> By what definition? Your monist view that the self lacks ontological >> status in the first place? >> >> davew >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: >> > Jon, >> > >> > Is a steam governor a case of downward causation? >> > >> > This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand your >> previous >> > answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. >> > >> > I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self >> that is >> > assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled. >> > >> > Perhaps I am getting tangled up in words again. >> > >> > n >> > >> > Nicholas Thompson >> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >> > Clark University >> > thompnicks...@gmail.com >> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,aryOhfVU48KQtN6xZTrA9DuKF6rEe-ZppSYOdQn_1Py6Cpgt586u2buLg3DjT-c0qFESZFBn3sJm21uO2hXWV9yFGAeZn5lBmiyLY_mGvBNki6JGqZr5Vawr0Cc,&typo=1> >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of jon zingale >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 2:01 PM >> > To: friam@redfish.com >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats >> > >> > Nick, >> > >> > Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for >> > instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. >> Additionally, >> > let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less >> obvious >> > relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water. >> > Would it be cheap to narrowly define *downward causation* as the >> > manipulation of the world in accordance with this language to produce >> new >> > sticks? >> > >> > Consider as another example when one manipulates charge in bulk using >> analog >> > filters. Here, a circuit designer may not need to know about spin or >> > superposition or a lot of other details about the universe. In fact, the >> > designer may not know how to write a "mid-frequency ranged filter" if >> they >> > were only given a quantum mechanical view of the world. They may, >> however, >> > know how to build such a filter if they are given appropriately shaped >> > conductive surfaces and coils. >> > >> > My apologies in advance if this characterization (that of reducing >> *downward >> > causation* to manipulation of a domain-specific language) is horribly >> > flawed, but I spent this much time writing a response. So, there. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > >> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,zhxU_vVsv9ENmY6yW-55DVmQnncjIyPjCFenNa3XEtLxEL8xhX_QAfgYpjkV9cQ4IohBspSDnV8mV7WutWnldm44IZkG045VfMLnwKaqTg,,&typo=1> >> un/subscribe >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zSuFFkbd2DB0WcR93zZDt047YkF5bz9HTAsYGTKqCdN75lkxCyZnxlBiiF1sGSpMEfCrGhdhRfg3eBXPgvsT7N3mon8c8OVcelM3PYT1MGJVqeJf3mw,&typo=1> >> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,mMqPyYeW8ru9GQWtxdbUB0n44q_5nLgSXy07t4V_AsmClsmtDPbtdvMOz-5MxQ5tWxFBJ8qcivsQfM9aR7aK_isMHCQNQDj-a2dz12hk9AAiuS2OI4gVareAMd8,&typo=1> >> >> > >> > >> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,B4cpuipzEG2eXsg7O70StTcbpgFg93n963u1h7h2e1VpwBe6yBONsECLa3GSlIhGn8pycQdagHTkalE4sosaj1Mnnq89IyVdHryiSM1sDiQwa85TIy_SIRE,&typo=1> >> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,P_kQbfRSHI5BkhTTOTUPwqVrHwhKyPcEEk3KwdTr3xnUZqrUqqUU7oDomuwnfRjpvDJFV_54QfVcg25ZSLB9qFkD_5YtR6cg6wv2fYyKGePArr-803HxHg,,&typo=1> >> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,_RcewwAYYcKcZuYr7ske1OgUoicI88EhT0ozpEjBK48bH6Qwd7lzSF5UFDTC0Ava8FAorp9VEX85dfKa7BWyBXPosSceC8bdEyBfoKehuOgJlakgU6L45augzw,,&typo=1> >> >> > >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,8j6zuxACaM_WBxlkXRZ401XK7pgfm7Grk6LoTaAV0cUpPdh6WFwi3aycBY390zKzJTY2RXCG3Co-hpsg_5NOADi8J8gzFwp30lY4kKUe&typo=1> >> un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,bc_gzuzh3V3ZXtRz_O83L9-oJlS_5AAcAGIlFgA2YaH6lFuHiLOsxqxuBHW2vmqTKKLnrt55qhgFOM6v8ZkXHCTIGtv5eWgB2WekDaH4&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Hv5_wjiqb-eAmU6QZbjPuZ0VfLQtR8HXARb1C6SyiSD1u8XVz2gSFEQIpVd6FcPdLTRhjJj7FPLRjdkkFoTv9bCYMGsBg9_JywfA7X4BGzE_TQ,,&typo=1 >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,vgn-LVwurTPU4PHGBobOufgVZyKMX_BoG99175Ye4LtS6FwX2H5yxVRtZaPkC9tZEytvihohj0XdES05CQhCf5FZ0i_NmQfIVex4MZQKI2Fr-T8AVQ,,&typo=1> >> un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,IEbkPyPoEmNxtfcCzvlRdgAgcRD5alKgjbALyoORazFB7lkGbQMJz6F7AaZCyEIQXnYvWl6RwACVbpi9h3bgIpqgkfQCs6WQ3hz7YuOCYtr5QC0FGgvsUlTCkjVa&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,VmZOKmmfgscmm08sqFURYYLfwTvhRvJuJPRX7KhzfkHQ6bPosmgeM0aZSiTrrl2_gt71JL5CrV4RYHQ65ehAhUPVdYUHB9jz_fv9Rh08mg,,&typo=1 >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,eUQspkjgooSfQI1n8bQ9YHa8vj_FG4lsCWY_X2UrHKqMDOnBkkcvxpxtvrR4oGLMVfugAuuK4mPTwJTVfwCYvcNjfkCF7scImpffn9HFrpuBD5eYPdfuGA,,&typo=1> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,cj6NxxleZJApqvFpFDwvsAqw7KzRyfWgl9_atfXU9zqdzYI59PSQ46I208heUz1JoOGCwlGbKJ1AP5-hcZ-PG_0Hajoy0erLpFpHB7953ak6FTIBEYzq&typo=1> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,1PGP1uSe0FSq5zxsasC7nm7Hi0syWB72LRwVimo0gnBFcgWlonkVwtmIfETdrAORqEFNavrSVAMDOmBefleSfl8mVVqT1mZ-0-NmvjxB8g,,&typo=1> >> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,stwIfcYFPTj1lVDgZhIeoKYoawIZZjZTIvJlw5FsPTmUoevZ4qYDrekwKpa8FUUT8euGWQtyKGFgaZ2g6EbRxbPx5TXx_9JZRA958MAaGdU1lFpwOUaS9A,,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,lmhzL86kuxGT3-taF3NIg7n2z0hmvIDJFaCqEXbBdcY_cVsExJkKIZP8cc4V446s-j-L0uQi9o7NhLXnO1Fj1ynI2B3lkcCTOSoSdak5FiI,&typo=1 > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/