Yes, but didn't developments in differentiable manifolds and related mathematics make modeling those empirical discoveries possible?
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 9:31 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > Yes, probably among the cleanest of syntaxes. > > I like it. To see it used more and better would be nice. > > Logic makes the connections that can be made by it. (To say it better, > which I think will relieve Glen of having to do it just to clear the > irritation, _any given logic_ makes the connections that can be made within > that logic.) > > Logic did not reveal to us that spacetime is Lorentzian and not > Cartesian/Newtonian. That was new empirical input. > > E > > > On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:10 PM, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> < > thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > In the same vein, as Frank, I suppose: Isn’t logic a form of syntax? > > N > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.com > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,B2UyeKdY2KA_d35EP_oVU45z4GzXhyPzOMshp94Jwpy_-svR3fGVDtdUyq7qXVnlDeFKLqN19D70CgqM1rvy2vttRXazT0ogbCaDBo2UMdwZ__kl_aLkf4W24gY,&typo=1> > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:56 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning > > > >but largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to > make, of believing one can argue from syntax to truth. > > Sometimes pure math reveals physics truth even when it wasn't the > mathematician's purpose. > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 6:55 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > > If done carefully, this could be a good conversation to have. > > The trick will be to clear the underbrush of obvious stuff and not go > endlessly in circles on that, in the hope of getting to something > non-obvious. > > There is various obvious stuff about solitons (including some storms), > roles of boundaries, and the use of statistical definitions of > individuality instead of naive matter-bounding definitions. I have some > extended sections on that kind of thing, to clear underbrush that is a > needless mess in biology, in the book with Harold. Like many other things, > I put it there as the one place I knew it would be safe from ever being > seen by anybody. So far that has worked well. Other authors, who have > been engaged in endless bickering for saying similar things in journal > articles, have had to shoulder all that traffic while I have been left in > peace to try to get on to something new. > > But let me reiterate to try to keep Nick at bay: I am a polysemist. The > fact that a word gets used for several things does not lead me to think > that they are the same or that it is merely a metaphor with one being > primary and the others derivative. I am not saying anybody else has to > hold that view, only giving notice that I do. > > Case in point (as setup): The back-and-forth on where the term “to have” > came from now has me interested in that. The exchange with EricC pushed me > off a foolish position I had been holding, and in that way cleared > underbrush, but didn’t yet get to anything original (at least not > contributed by me). > > Other inputs: > > — I am unlikely to believe any path in this conversation that believes > itself to be either top-down or bottom-up. I think Glen’s oft-advocated > middle-out is the only way to hope to have an insightful line of > questioning. > > — Not having anything better to refer to, I like Gian-Carlo Rota’s notion > (yes, Husser’s, or Heidegger’s, but the only version I have read directly > is from Rota’s exposition) of “the unthematized” from phenomenology. > Wherever these terms and their scopes come from, it seems to be there. > Again I reiterate, for lack of having something better. > > — I know, from listening to them (but not committing to following them for > 50 years, which I know is the minimal price of admission) that the > Buddhists believe they have the Whole Story on this, and that it is much > better than Rota’s “unthematized”. But I have no way to know if that is > the case, or if they just feel better believing it is. > > — This is why I like very widely cross-linguistic evidence bases, and I > tend to dislike the thesaurus-type analytical reasoning of senses and > subsenses of meanings, which strikes me as useful within small bounds, but > largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to make, > of believing one can argue from syntax to truth. If one can get parallel > emergences of polysemies from many distantly-related branches (preferably > whole-world, if one had the databases), that seems more likely to be > informative on the experience of being human and the character of living. > > — It does seem a bit suspicious to me that Buddhism is a canon. Any other > commentary on living seems to change as the conditions of living change. > So I have little resonance with bronze-age stories that murder is less of > an offense against The Lord than eating shellfish, and I resonate much more > easily with Irish folk tales for children than I do with many of their > African counterparts. I also find what counts as argument by Plato > interesting but completely mystifying. Of course the Buddhists would > answer that their great eternity of reality was never perturbed by the > ripples on a pond the life course of this planet, so why shouldn’t some > Indians and Tibetans have come to discover the whole thing and final word > in a few thousand years at a particular era in human history. To me that > position is tautological, and asserted by many religions, so I don’t see > how to say anything useful to engage with it. Happily, they have no reason > to care what I think, about that or anything else, so they can go on living > in peace and doing what they want. > > To end, because I need to go to a meeting: I don’t think the use of > “individual” in psychology is super-close to the notion of being > individuated as a cell, organism, soliton, hurricane, etc. There can be > some simple stuff to look for as overlaps, but I feel like the low-hanging > fruit in that is all underbrush, which any college undergrad does staying > up too late in gab sessions because doing your classwork is too tedious. > It would be good to somehow see that we can recognize what much of that is, > agree that the obvious things aren’t too controversial or very informative, > and try to get past them. I know with certainty I will be proved wrong in > believing that is possible. > > But, still the topic is a good one, > > Eric > > > > On Sep 2, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > A deep dive into the theory of reincarnation, Vedic version, reveals that > the individual IS " simply a node in a system of interacting forces." The > material aspect of that node, the incarnation, acts as a kind of inertial > persistence - the forces repeat, moment to moment' the highly similar body > with accompanying mental illusions of self. When the material body > decomposes, the forces that gave rise to it do not and, with some degree of > probability, give rise to a variant of the same entity at some point in the > future. That second 'individual' is, to some statistical degree, the same > individual previously incarnated but definitely not a clone — hence > re-incarnation. > > But ultimately, all are nodes in systems of interacting forces. > > davew > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 4:09 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > > EricS asked: > > *What am I but an individual?* > > Could you simply be a unique node in a system of interacting forces? > > I have long wanted to write an essay as a psychologist to a meteorology > journal entitled “Should we name storms? > > The first part of the essay argues that we shouldn’t name them because > storms, unlike humans, are not proper individuals. Ie the forces that move > them are not the forces that define them. > > The second part argues that we should name them because humans are, in > fact,, like storms, each one defined by the particular forces that act upon > it. > > Nick > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.com > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,6K-BylMLdNxb8DSP6nGmKKFojRxz62aTnShv8kLA9iqONITOdc8zXEfRa8StAS6sZvQo7tW_JrNr3-_NekQxdY_cqVT0UFgMwmYcmaenj-o,&typo=1&ancr_add=1> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 5:58 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning > > > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:41 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: > > > > I was made to take piano lessons for five years. I did minimal > practice, but still hated it and the idea of it. I can’t do it all now, > and don’t wish I could. Don’t tell me what is important. I will > prioritize what I want. > > I am imagining I see a through-line here, for several threads. > > We take individuality for granted; after all, what else can I be but an > individual? (The Buddhists will get all energized that that view is what > is sending the world to hell.) > > But being an individual isn’t easy. One can’t do it passively. One has > to constantly fight off the world’s encroachment to be an individual. > Hence elbowing for space, just to elbow for space, is probably innate. > > There is a line, I think somewhere in Bible/Job/ that I have always liked > and used, even though the book as a whole isn’t gripping to me, like > something from an alien species, and could sort-of be about making > almost-any point. It was: > > “Why dost thou kick against the pricks?” > > I remember I was all in a prowl over getting an idiot-review of a paper, > and in the mood that that puts me in, that I am eager to meet the reviewer > with an A-10. I wandered into the SFI kitchen to encounter Walter Fontana, > always for me a comforting presence that the world would continue to have > at least one interesting person in it, no matter what else happened. I was > unloading on him, because the only time I am funny is when I am really > annoyed, and I don’t want all that to be lost, like Rutger Hauer says, > “like tears, in rain” with nobody to enjoy it. About 2 minutes in, I had > Walter laughing out loud, and the culmination of my relation to reviewers > was: > > Why dost thou kick against the pricks? Because they piss me off! > > But back to the point: do we learn anything about the nature of > individuality? > > Eric > > > That said, a vaccine is passive and takes no attention. > > > >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:29 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or > >> face prison > >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c > >> om%2fpolitics%2f2021%2fsep%2f01%2fjudge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to > >> -read-classic-literature-or-face-prison&c=E,1,M9NK9YVSpDUE3ATp1xxsWZ6 > >> 6fJfv7F41fZ3yhs00aXqlOlf6_8OBrRKThjnj4inZPPTHFPQ7WNCTHfJ5cMMP63OghVQR > >> 2wAsowx7Pdk58b0,&typo=1 > >> > >> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and > mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap about > fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk about how > mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, preventing > collegial conversation. > >> > >> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. > Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to memorize > Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate Shakespeare, because > she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just *thinks* she hates it because of > this "mandate" she suffered under. This court mandated "literature therapy" > being imposed on this kid could work, if he can read it sympathetically. > But if he can't, if he simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn? > >> > >> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] > in writing: > >> > >> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems > generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic > systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, > incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that > engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers > ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral > sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment > to the world." > >> > >> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by > mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters > learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the court's > reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and Prejudice, > should teach that kid something. But which is the more dangerous stupidity? > Which stupidity runs the risk of a more catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the > vaccine? Or mandating vaccination? > >> > >> > >> [ψ] > >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324 > >> %2f9781351001885&c=E,1,kUEPqU5HqAHoV8Du4pwpdvHxqK_cJ1fOdlepXjYSapoLr0 > >> ahTnkT06xd9Ll5tgJAyZ0h6glDWPK6a_eBJPD9GwxJm6FJFc-LbP5e9rdDCai8Wg,,&ty > >> po=1 > >> > >> -- > >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ > >> > >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,s6yEabislhhMDVoxlhSf7syPf5TT5Q4D3F4QeULGR_SKUjPOSFlF6cEp1A5go47SjASIxX41meopZkT9ag-NhmJkWKlwWmQBuak503-Z8HHa2jOopTHis696&typo=1> > un/subscribe > >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmail > >> man%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2f2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,BIaZjYXL2iMY77V8vtxdQUGWOEXjbY_RGhNmu_QzeSnOwj-ucYgqlT9Mj8YLDxbAqqugvjNbBYL57hMx5ihQYOvCzNq6ADx8npTGc5wkuFro2ilg&typo=1> > &c=E,1,n5QcC5BxTTInuyi0FGLlhrMioE2x > >> zUT3iEeisulPZhW8zoxyb0S29h4t9DrRMXcDN1ZPSdoYp-JjKCqLrR6EerStKzUa_yqH- > >> xxD2YaXvlg,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC > >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogsp > >> ot.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fot.com%2f&c=E,1,gGwPxncRHSehEgUFWbklc9wnBjUsYGd7iplSvRm2y5fYOVTSyTiwRXC_ud77Dz0sqEiFB5zAfUSFME7WZP1em_fcrNlpMRDlzSn5YaC73UrKJOuuybNiNxl9OQ,,&typo=1> > %2f&c=E,1,Emy9ffjRpHPFfElpitvV6ESNfaaiVFF3ozw8CYPbIJBvrCds-DCwa > >> 5gRrBbtHQcynrViAIM2_beiNJto9xJpD3kW_RT67QX9XI_MKOwbBCv1zA,,&typo=1 > >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - 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