Fascism looms large over South Africa too. We just had a narrow escape. Our previous president, Jacob Zuma, had us on the way to total disaster. I have very high hopes that the tide has turned and that our current president, Cyril Ramaphosa is leading us to the moral high ground we had under Nelson Mandela. I really enjoy living in this exciting world!
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021, 11:56 pm David Eric Smith, <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > It’s okay, Jochen, but I do want to avoid false equivalences. If one > refrains from using the term fascism until one has committed to meaning a > specific thing by it, and then tries to use that meaning as an aid in > sense-making, that is not the same as hurling epithets. Fascism looms not > just over Germans, but over people. It happened to Germans and Spaniards > and Italians and Argentines in particular eras, and they will unfortunately > not only carry the latent rules of the game like everybody else does, but > also almanacs of how various courses of play unroll, which are then > available as a learning set for others. I wish there weren’t any people > who suffer under that, but given that the past has happened, it seems not > at all wrong to try to learn from it where possible. > > Hindsight in the US will be 20/20, but if we are going to recognize that > there is a serious problem and try to find some way to head it off, now > would be a very good time to do that. Much better than after the problem > has played out and we can affirm that, yes, that was the collapse of > American society into barbarism. And later historians can say, as they > always say, “How did people just let it happen, when surely there were many > of them for whom that wasn’t at all wanted?” Well…. > > Perhaps — a Total Waste of Mailing-List Time — I can entertain you with > how I ended up at Riefenstahl. > > 1. Joshua Cheptegei from Uganda won the 5k in the Tokyo Olympics, a race > that was adjacent to the one I was urgently eager to watch, which was the > men’s marathon in which Eliud Kipchoge created the kind of moment of grace > I had been hoping for. > > 2. Last year in Atlanta, while riding in an Uber, the driver-woman was > very concerned about flooding in Uganda, and I was aware I didn’t have a > mental picture of Uganda’s location, topography, and geography. > > 3. Cheptegai seemed somehow similar to a Kipsigis name, but I was unsure, > and wikipedia’d him. There I learned that he has a middle name Kiprui. > Aha! He is a Kalenjin! > > 4. So where exactly is Uganda? Oh! It is just a continuation on the > Kalenjin side of the part of Kenya spanning the East-African rift system on > the north side of Lake Victoria. Of course. Why then are there fewer > really successful Ugandan Kalenjin runners than Kenyans? Is it something > about national wealth or corruption or development index? Or have the > populations changed a bit going east. We can see, within Kenya, that the > Kalenjin, the Maasai, and the Luo have very different relations to running > (the Luo not eat all, the Maasai rarely and more in middle distance), and > for some of these differences it is easy to understand why. > > 5. Related to that: since we know there was successful Bantu migration as > far east as Kenya, Bantu groups among the major political pillars often > opposed to the Luo, is there a large Bantu presence in Uganda? How does > that affect politics and opportunities there? > > 6. I realize I _really_ need to fill in gaps in my knowledge of the > population structure of the Nilotic peoples across that regions, and check > whether I can reasonably-reliably identify them by look, as I normally > think I can. > > 7. Riefenstahl had this photo-book of the people she called “Die Nuba”, > which I saw many years ago (not a real group, which is in keeping with a > woman of not-great intelligence but Dunning-Kruger levels of energy and > self-assuredness): who were those people? My memory of them is of a > Nilotic look, were they? (Never found a reliable answer to that question). > > 8. And oh, by the way, I remember criticism of Riefenstahl’s having skewed > or staged things about the lives of the people she lived with; but had no > frame to have a view of the criticisms at the time; do I have a frame to > have a view now? > > 9. Somewhere in that stream, I ran across Sontag, realized I didn’t > remember who she was or why she was at one time a meme, and off we go down > the track of reading I forwarded. > > 10. That track of reading helps clarify places where I feel confused on > many fronts. I hard long seen Nietzsche as an antidote to Platonism — > where here, circling back to Nick’s question a week ago, I mean people who > prefer their own preconceived notions to faithful witnessing of experiences > — and a precursor to the existentialists. But Sontag makes me aware and > cautious that Nietzsche is a more complicated figure than that. He is full > of what she calls the fascist aesthetic: “My eagle and my snake”; living on > “honey, ice-fresh” etc. Just stuff that seems arbitrary and nonsense if > you aren’t coming from the ecstatic perspective. Honey is about as far > removed from ice as anything I can imagine having in my mouth. So > Nietzsche is coming from this complicated, scattered sensibility, as it > seems in my eyes. On one hand, his life-affirming philosophy wants to get > away from much of what I regard as poisonous in platonism and in > christianity, and profoundly healthy. On the other hand, those who wanted > to peg him as an icon of Nazism have material to draw from, and his own > protestations, that he is not “a good German, but a very good European” > become complicated to evaluate. > > But of course, who would possibly write all that irrelevant digression > into a mailing-list post…. > > Eric > > > > On Sep 24, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > > Leni Riefenstahl? Ugh. Sounds like an example of Godwin's law: as an > online discussion continues, the probability of a reference or comparison > to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law > > Here in Germany there is nearly every week a documentary on TV about the > time of the Nazis, often at midnight. Hitler's dogs, Hitler's drugs, > Hitler's home in Austria, etc. For me it feels as if the past is haunting > us. There might be a psychological aspect behind (collective) spooky > phenomena :-/ > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> > Date: 9/23/21 23:45 (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin > > So the Monbiot article below is really interesting. > > Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t know whether legitimate or in > violation of some paywall) to an article I mentioned before: > https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdf > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fcampus.albion.edu%2fgcocks%2ffiles%2f2013%2f08%2fFascinating-Fascism.pdf&c=E,1,GD2kduWeTsQVaHex1Um8pFzIjkTJGq6FbLdUPmPYq-Ie7n_v8dwyTsarS140673LSz4XngkRXIx3D26xDKrwmYNXxkrCRYTCos402V0ekx_L&typo=1> > specifically the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called > “fascist aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected > my thinking, because many things keep coming back to it and taking an > orientation from it. (n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style > in the great-fun article by Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few > days ago; I am aware of that at the same time as sending this link because > I think there is worth in it.) > > That the Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other > contexts) we consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or > things of that sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not > what they endorsed, but why they endorsed it. > > I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics in a line or two by > saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground for choosing. I > couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as intense as it > appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but I don’t > really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it > seems to be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment. > (b.t.w. this is also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that > some people keep wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James > and Peirce were of a piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem > almost poles.) > > There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with > the way scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions. > Arguing that they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all > this language is very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use > a middle-out language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem” > sense of “puzzle to be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or > rejected”). But the back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and > its big value is that it is more than nothing. Getting more than nothing > is rather a rare prize, and something worth working toward and then > protecting if you can have a little bit. > > But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and > when asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position > something like “you’ll see when you see”. It is distastefully close, in my > perception, to those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and > you just won’t admit it. When you stop resisting and admit it, you will > come around to where I am, and you will see.” That doesn’t seem to me like > any way to make decisions that differs from what leaves us in our current > mess, since people have been doing it forever. Yet those who are into it > now are convinced that this time they hold the true innovation. > > Very hard for me to understand. > > Eric > > > On Sep 24, 2021, at 1:57 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcommentisfree%2f2021%2fsep%2f22%2fleftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power&c=E,1,YQWY-Qx-D6GAp4uFSbw9DpsNm0UPherqjbJBTzVjSG_of5c03uW3M1Peo6dUo_IiTgPC8e0gxQA9PhkeNnQbLgsUGzPtJnH2zqUVd0qr3S7PDBI,&typo=1 > > "The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, > has begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive > us of autonomy." > > On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me. > > It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are > their interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh > not, modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but > ultimately I claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my > health to somebody else. > > For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much power > do drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8> on Youtube, going into > details of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies. > > > -- > "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,7QY-CB0jY0-3m9FXskvIwFDd6gkxOSryK3iKrpu8Kpq_xLuoWLeD8aDpo_2iCSo7lvmJRNfFLd2ZgFMsf8VaVIp3uU1n9mj6svjFnIv6NSpxC9TgfYIPkw,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,WpeKIobLFuTzoz0fxZwqZ7kE9SSkkusCGENMmVR9TgGBT_KAOh30A8j8-G7o_rBERbu62Fhu_SkruUgqknfMAQKaw3PWYDKunFdFF8nwftBENwcpO5fAwmTi5w,,&typo=1 > archives: > 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Lttkm_XosvvuZ1Uc8nT4E07ohGjNgoMlt7w0RNXECcvxy3K9qkRHibfC8hjz_GFnqQdUPKmiShNEDUlyVt7ZDCbUtmv1iASjEUZbZUgFIxhpCSWDbw,,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,eAY45PgVr1PP9Dvt9i1C1vUSAVBQbB_BnOdVViXBGss6ktCTtCz421VlmDY3EhelTqI4YNmHo6B2Ohsh70X4UcMkQ5cmN8IBkikskrWcO9Dcyum0NW17&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ktRFDMexkCkr0eHOE4Oa1oU5BAAetJlogEEyywtkS9HJXM2LTlTZA7PvVA4pEK8jcAdOVD8eKw286jMPVQG00jbhodnAftpItdt3MUom&typo=1 > archives: > 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,WDNFbg5-sSNfeoyi-LGE3ojc6-2zlCDTFjB4hFuHr-rjcQJkGx0i_5tV93XpmmpUjO4kW9jJdI5N9u33tVMasNCuDUPi37VcovvctQGcmJZ-eytW-ydMNH0,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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