Carl -
I think your point is very well taken, that *much* of what renders out
as hypocrisy is often a reflection of overly ambitious aspirations.
However it IS often easier to hold those aspirations for *others* and
then criticize *their* failure which is the more traditional stylization
of "hypocrisy". As I age, my aspirations wane but so does my ability
and I often wonder at the ratio of my reach/grasp, whether it is
convergent on 1:1 or more likely radically divergent. At death, I
suppose, the denominator goes to 0 in the limit?
Glen -
Your point about whole/part conflation is interesting. I do think that
this conflation can be very problematic, but I also find it interesting
that there *might* be something to it as well (independent of the
specifics of hypocrisy). As I've tried to understand more of the
implications of holarchies and heterarchies, I sense that the
evolutionary consequence/mechanism of "stacking" holons into holarchies
is complemented by the crossing of those lines with different levels in
the *archy. One version of these heterarchical crossing of levels
would seem to be an example of what is implied when we try to attribute
qualities of a subsystem to a supersystem? Are these always and
entirely a false equivalence/conflation? Do the qualities of a cell
re-present themselves at the organ or organism level? The qualities of
an individual in a population? A species in an ecosystem?
Nick -
Your point about "a Unified System" is very aligned with what I'm trying
to gesture above with my *archy points with Glen. I'd like to
understand more about your own perspective on these ideas... though I
don't know where to start. I recently took a deep dive into Bateson
via Charlton's "Understanding Bateson" and am now elbow deep in Deacon's
"Incomplete Nature". I feel that my own adherence to the "hard
sciences" steered me away from some important and deep thinkers (e.g.
Bateson) and that history is now beginning to support some of their more
intuitive and less rigorous claims... a continued variation on the
"effing the ineffable" discussion here I suppose?
Sarbajit -
I can only (barely) imagine what the US govt and maybe more to the
point, the US information-industrial complex must feel like to members
of non-Western cultures/countries. I am not a fan of abortion nor of
much of Western Medicine, though I *am* a strong proponent of women's
rights including right-to-choose to terminate a pregnancy. Without
following the threads of your specific implications, I would not be
surprised to find that your assertions about abortificants being toxic,
even carcinogenic were spot-on. I believe that *many* (if not all)
Medicines (Western and otherwise) *are* toxic (see virtually all forms
of cancer remedy) but represent a presumed "lesser evil". A great deal
of the abortions promoted in our (Western) culture, at best, qualify (to
me) as "lesser evils" which is a sad statement about our culture... but
in my value system, nevertheless "lesser" if still tragic.
While I am often shocked by some of your statements and claims, I can
attribute a lot of that to the very *valuable* cultural parallax you
offer when you make those statements here... We are a fairly
monocultural group, even *with* yours and a few other voices here... I
appreciate the added spectral spread your offerings induce.
On 7/12/22 1:23 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
Well, hypocrisy is not an argument. Our reach exceeds our grasp, is
all.
C
On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:53 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote:
What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is
the overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would
make sense to accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something
like hypocrisy. But even there, we have different regimes ran by
different people and there's a turnover of individuals within the
affiliated organizations.
I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments
against willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross
administration changes like Trump rejecting the nuclear deal with
Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens United ruling and the false
equivalence between national debt/deficit and household debt.
Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative
government be *hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?
On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sarbajit,
>
> Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the
science behind it?
>
> I am guessing that this is all new to us.
>
> As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified
system, usually a person. But perhaps the metaphor works the
other way around. Perhaps people are just badly integrated
systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, hypocrisy, loving
thy neighbor too well, and all of that! So instead of saying that
governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are
sort of like governments.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of
*Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
>
> The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
>
> For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self
induced abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America
through their puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using
misrepresentations and outright lies.
>
> These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was
caught red handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to
shape the "self induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and
as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher delisted in India for
about a year, but they made their way back through the USAID
RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government servants to shape
policy
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW,
this popped up in my feed:
>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>
>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy
was added to my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing
for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought
veterinary ivermectin and the people who used the disgusting sneer
"horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up this morning about a
homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery:
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>.
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take
multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that
*healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actually
qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? That's not
an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do
pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and
maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for hobbies. But what
you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event
would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best
a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>
<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf>
>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading
self-help books, cutting out magazine ads for their "vision
board", or self-administering veterinary de-fetus pills, but
there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water,
alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc.
all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
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