I am going ot the MAPS ( https://maps.org/event/psychedelic-science-2023/0 Conference in Denver next summer and will report on the state of research in this area.
BTW—and not for purposes of extending discussion—those who I am channeling DO, in fact, advocate for embodied and macro-minds, not an isolated brain. davew On Fri, Aug 19, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote: > Steve Smith writes: > > There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved in > > modulating these processes. > > Jack (not George) Cowan gave a great lecture at BiosGroup in 2000 on this > very topic: > > " What geometric visual hallucinations tell us about the visual cortex" > https://www.math.uh.edu/~dynamics/reprints/papers/nc.pdf > > Abstract: Geometric visual hallucinations are seen by many observers after > taking hallucinogens such as LSD, cannabis, mescaline or psilocybin, on > viewing bright > flickering lights, on waking up or falling asleep, in “near death” > experiences, > and in many other syndromes. Kl¨uver organized the images into four groups > called “form constants”: (1) tunnels and funnels, (2) spirals, (3) lattices, > including honeycombs and triangles, and (4) cobwebs. In general the images do > not move with the eyes. We interpret this to mean that they are generated > in the brain. Here we present a theory of their origin in visual cortex (area > V1), based on the assumption that the form of the retino–cortical map and the > architecture of V1 determine their geometry. We model V1 as the continuum > limit of a lattice of interconnected hypercolumns, each of which itself > comprises > a number of interconnected iso-orientation columns. Based on anatomical > evidence we assume that the lateral connectivity between hypercolumns exhibits > symmetries rendering it invariant under the action of the Euclidean group > E(2), > composed of reflections and translations in the plane, and a (novel) > shift–twist > action. Using this symmetry, we show that the various patterns of activity > that spontaneously emerge when V1’s spatially uniform resting state becomes > unstable, correspond to the form constants when transformed to the visual > field > using the retino–cortical map. The results are sensitive to the detailed > specification of the lateral connectivity and suggest that the cortical > mechanisms > which generate geometric visual hallucinations are closely related to those > used > to process edges, contours, textures and surfaces. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > stephen.gue...@simtable.com <mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > CEO, https://www.simtable.com > 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 > office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828 > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:40 AM Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >> And the retina is not a simple pixel-camera... even one with a non-uniform, >> non-rectangular distribution of photon-integrators... there is plenty of >> processing going on between rods/cones and optic-nerve. Do we suppose that >> *these* layers are significantly short-circuited by (some) psychadelics? >> >> >> >> Retinal Processing Layers >> <https://www.embl.org/news/science/vision-unveiled-new-roles-for-the-retina-in-visual-processing/#:~:text=Located%20at%20the%20back%20of,colour%2C%20contrast%2C%20and%20motion.> >> >> There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved in >> modulating these processes. >> >> I tend to believe (with no specific references to offer) that the more >> interesting mediation/modulation DaveW gestures towards goes on further down >> the chain of processing. Loosening up some of the (over?) model-fitting >> going on downstream from edge/contrast-enhanced perceptual info. For >> example, I don't think that the military-industrial complex will have secret >> psychoactive drugs which replace night-vision goggles anytime soon. BUT I am >> more inclined to believe that cognition/perception - *sharpening*/*widening* >> pharmacology is already in use . Cigarettes and Coffee were in >> WWII/Korea/Vietnam Rations as well as Bennies >> <https://allthatsinteresting.com/amphetamine-use-world-war-2>. Good thing >> the Wermacht hadn't hit on PCP >> <https://drugabuse.com/drugs/hallucinogens/pcp/history-statistics/> by >> then... already Jacked Ubermenchen on Hydrazine afterburners? >> >> Are all our geriatric politicians on B12/Aderall cocktails? Oh to see the >> pharmacological records for our most colorful politicians today! >> >> <Cyberpunk Segue> >> >>> As is my habit, I refer to a Science Fiction Novel of relevance: Hard >>> Wired <http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/excerpt-hardwired.html> - Walter >>> Jon Williams. On the one hand, this early cyberpunk novel is armatured >>> around advanced tech facilitated by earth-orbit near-zero-gravity, >>> near-perfect-vacuum, near-zero-regulation, and >>> near-zero-distribution-challenges (de-orbited bundles) supporting a >>> florescence of pharmaceutical research/development/production/use. On >>> the other hand, the protaganist (as I remember him) was wonderfully >>> oldSkool, using a 3 chamber insulin-pump style tool interfaced to his >>> neural interface to drive his Red/White/Blue drug-drip system. Red and >>> White are advanced forms of the conventional mapping (downers/uppers) to >>> support on-demand relaxation/rest and on-demand energy/focus. Blue is an >>> on-demand perception-sharpening/broadening drug. >>> >>> <Strip City Segue> >>> >>>> Walter is one of a fascinating contingent of NM contemporary writers >>>> nominally from ABQ (Belen I think) and HW published in 1987 was an early >>>> throwdown in the Cyberpunk Genre, and is set in the near-future >>>> Flagstaff-Albuquerque "Strip City" (and low-earth orbit). Considering >>>> the proliferation/existence of strip-cities that have emerged along >>>> transportation (road, river, etc) routes organically, the Saudi "Line" >>>> Glen recently brought up here seems like an obvious ideation for an Arabic >>>> architect jacked on too much "Spice" ("Dune "reference). >>>> >>>> Even 20 years ago, Colorado Front Range residents were referring to >>>> Ft-Pueblo to reference the (near) continuous development of the I25 >>>> corridor from Ft. Collins to Pueblo. I flew back from Europe into Denver >>>> and drove from my daughter's place in Parker (south-south-Denver) to >>>> Pueblo on the back "farm roads" further out in the plains and discovered >>>> that the Ft-Pueblo stripmall-strip had grown out a good 10-20 miles East >>>> of I25 at several points (Castle-Rock, ColoSpgs, Pueblo). >>>> >>> </Segue> >>> >> </Segue> >> >> On 8/18/22 11:00 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> >>> The retina isn't perfect by any means, and the visual cortex must fix its >>> inputs to make vision seem better than the raw inputs. This is from >>> memory, but I can look up references. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West >>> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 8:56 PM >>> To: friam@redfish.com >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] dystopian vision(s) >>> >>> An analogy that might clarify what was being conveyed in the original post: >>> >>> A RAW image - no compression, no processing - is what the brain/mind can >>> perceive. >>> >>> JPEG is the image after going through the "survival filter" - both >>> compression and adjustments to saturation, contrast, and sharpness. There >>> are all kinds of advantages to JPEG, but "accuracy/fidelity" is not one of >>> them. Consider all the consternation amateur photographers had a few months >>> back with their phones failing to capture the redness of the sky in San >>> Francisco and other parts of CA. >>> >>> Drugs, so the advocates claim, are not an alternate transformation—not >>> HEIF—but simply a removal of the compression/processing mechanism entirely. >>> >>> Of course, even RAW is lossy: a few million pixels captured from the near >>> infinity of discrete photons available. I suspect the brain/mind is less >>> lossy, but to what degree? >>> >>> And my own experiences, both chemical and meditative, suggest to me that >>> some kind of patterned sense making is still going on because my >>> 'mind/consciousness' still interprets things — I still see the Argus Goat >>> (sometimess a ram instead of a goat, with multiple eyes, often conflated >>> with Argus Panoptes) allbeit It and I might have a conversation. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2022, at 2:15 PM, glen wrote: >>> >>>> I'm glad you softened it. Codependence *is* "organic to the nature of >>>> one's existence". What I worry about are those that idealize >>>> themselves as only codependent on some singular thing, which is what >>>> you're calling out when you talk about identification with thrill >>>> seeking or whatever. It's the single-ness that's the problem, not the >>>> codependence. >>>> >>>> Marcus and Dave seem tightly analogous in their positive responses to >>>> technological entheogens and physio-chemical ehtheogens, respectively. >>>> And you, being a bit of an ehtheogen-teatotaler, if I've understood >>>> correctly, align with Marcus. In contrast, I'm agnostic about the >>>> origins and pathway of any entheogens I might become codependent upon. >>>> Drugs, even very old ones brewed up by one-eyed witches in the outback >>>> bush, *are* technology, nearly identical to the Mojo Lens or the >>>> Neuralink. What's that stanza from Alice in Chains? >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GAEFTeWko >>>> " >>>> What's my drug of choice? >>>> Well, what have you got? >>>> I don't go broke >>>> And I do it a lot >>>> " >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/18/22 11:36, Steve Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 8/18/22 9:47 AM, glen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah. I'm not as concerned as you seem to be about the addictive nature >>>>>> of alternative perspectives. Obviously, because my whole schtick is >>>>>> about attempting to take alternative perspectives. The addict has to >>>>>> admit they have a problem before treatment will work, eh? >>>>>> >>>>> My use of the term "addictive" was unfortunate. I didn't mean it >>>>> particularly perjoratively. I mostly just meant the awareness that one >>>>> can become "codependent" on substances/experiences which are not >>>>> otherwise organic to the nature of one's existence in-context. Tarzan and >>>>> his friends may have done something vaguely similar to bungee jumping and >>>>> skydiving (vine swinging and cliff diving), but those who have made the >>>>> high-tech equivalents of those experiences part of their very persona >>>>> have "given over" in some way that may or may not be something to "worry >>>>> about"... it is just in a practical sense a "commitment". I have known >>>>> plenty of people who have made "commitments" to all kinds of >>>>> things/substances (caffiene, nicotine, alcohol, thc, gucose, lipids, >>>>> parkour, etc) which they are virtually symbiotic with (addicted to?). I >>>>> have my own practical commitments to all kinds of behaviours and >>>>> consumptions which are effectively now *part of who I am*. I might have >>>>> been a somewhat different person today if I had never become "committed" >>>>> to alcohol, caffiene, earning/spending $USD, driving planes, trains, >>>>> automobiles, etc. >>>>> >>>>>> But if we adopt the perspective of the "longtermists", "transhumansits", >>>>>> or similar, and believe that essentialist computation is the limit >>>>>> point, the thing just over the horizon toward which evolution works, >>>>>> then our *brain* is one of the first/best instantiations of such >>>>>> computers. (Maybe I need scare quotes, there, too ... "computers"?) >>>>>> Quantum comput[ers|ing] is a close second only because too many people >>>>>> are ignorant enough of current computing to think hard about its >>>>>> limitations. >>>>>> >>>>> FWIW I was just re-introduced to Bostrom's Astronomical Waste >>>>> <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> arguement in the context of >>>>> a New Yorker Article on Effective Altruism which I think you have >>>>> referenced a few times here. A more computationally/entropic framed >>>>> version of the Dyson Sphere <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> >>>>> (or more originally the Stapledon Light Trap): >>>>> >>>>> An excerpt from/Star Maker/which mentions Dyson spheres: >>>>> >>>>> Not only was every solar system now surrounded by a gauze of >>>>> light traps, which focused the escaping solar energy for intelligent use, >>>>> so that the whole galaxy was dimmed, but many stars that were not suited >>>>> to be suns were disintegrated, and rifled of their prodigious stores of >>>>> subatomic energy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> So another form of Dave's argument, still metaphysical, is this >>>>>> Smolin-esque (or even Schrödinger-esque ala negentropy?) concept that >>>>>> our objective(s) is tightly coupled pockets of deep computation. And >>>>>> *that*, given that our brains are fantastic computers, gives some weight >>>>>> to the idea that deep and broad introspection gets one closer to God, >>>>>> closer to the objective, closer to the real occult Purpose behind it all >>>>>> in much the same way as studying quantum mechanics and quantum >>>>>> computation. >>>>>> >>>>>> My argument *against* that is that even if tightly coupled (coherent) >>>>>> pockets of computation are a crucial element, so is the interstitial >>>>>> space *between* the tight pockets ... like black holes orbiting each >>>>>> other or somesuch. It's not merely the individual pocket/computer that's >>>>>> interesting, it's the formation, dissolution, and interaction of the >>>>>> pockets that's more interesting. Actually, then, the *void* is more >>>>>> interesting than the non-void. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tangentially: >>>>>> >>>>>> Panic! At the Disks: First Rest-frame Optical Observations of Galaxy >>>>>> Structure at z>3 with JWST in the SMACS 0723 Field >>>>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.09428 >>>>>> >>>>> I appreciate having near-peers who are "peering" into the same general >>>>> (vaguely familiar) areas of the fractal abyss that I am... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 8/18/22 08:03, Steve Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The experience *I* have (or the way I have mostly interpreted it) with >>>>>>> various ways of "playing around with my interface/membrane/boundary" is >>>>>>> that alternatively addictive to the point of becoming "essential" and a >>>>>>> "vertiginous stare into the abyss" at the same time. I'm not talking >>>>>>> particularly or specifically about ingesting entheogens or any other >>>>>>> substance known to acutely adjust reality. There are (obviously) many >>>>>>> other ways to "play around with the boundary". For what it is worth, >>>>>>> Pandora is playing Denver's iconic "Rocky Mountain High" in the >>>>>>> background as I complete this paragraph. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I currently attribute this to the alone/all-one duality and the >>>>>>> flexibility (elastic and plastic) nature of self-other boundaries >>>>>>> (membranes?) as a conscious ego. (Sting - How Fragile we are on >>>>>>> Pandora now, segueing into judy Collins' Both Sides Now). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I take "the Uni/Multi-verse" to be nothing more/less than a single >>>>>>> complex adaptive system which can(not) be reduced to a system of >>>>>>> systems (only reduceable by an imperfectly isolated system (self) which >>>>>>> has a compressed "model" of the universe as a system of systems of >>>>>>> which it"self" is a perfectly isolated subsystem(self)) then the >>>>>>> experience of self-other and "gaining insight/parallax into (R)reality" >>>>>>> isn't all that puzzling (to this self's model of itself within the >>>>>>> universal). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This of course still leaves (for this illusory "self") the "hard >>>>>>> problem" of the fact (rather than the nature) of (subjective) >>>>>>> experience itself... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a feeling (in my subjective experience as a self) that the >>>>>>> "breath of consciousness" might be the compression/decompression cycle >>>>>>> itself? Talking (linearly) about this stuff is a fractal/recursive >>>>>>> minefield of rabbit-holes worthy of Alice tripping on Entheogens? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/18/22 8:34 AM, glen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Parallax is an important technique for getting at things just *beyond* >>>>>>>> one's current representational power. So, were I to try to steelman >>>>>>>> your argument, I'd suggest that, yes, the process by which our bodies >>>>>>>> refine/focus/hone-down our attention to a smaller, compressed thing >>>>>>>> from a larger thing (whether the largess is "noise" or not is a >>>>>>>> tangent) is important. And the entheogens permute that honing down, >>>>>>>> that reduction, to create a different transformation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's reasonable to speculate that the transformation we execute under >>>>>>>> the influence of an entheogen might be *less* reductive than that we >>>>>>>> execute when "sober". But to argue that the transformation under the >>>>>>>> influence is a more accurate match to reality is fraught. Less >>>>>>>> reductive? Sure. More accurate? Well, that would require us to go into >>>>>>>> that tangent. What do we mean by more accurate? Does randomness exist? >>>>>>>> Etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So we might want to be careful with that crossing between relatively >>>>>>>> tame statements like "entheogens alter the cross-membrane >>>>>>>> transformation providing parallax toward the out there" versus more >>>>>>>> metaphysical statements like "entheogens provide a better >>>>>>>> transformation (or no tranformation) across the boundary to the out >>>>>>>> there". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for clarifying. I think I have a better understanding of the >>>>>>>> argument. Those of us who play around with our interface probably *do* >>>>>>>> have a better understanding of reality than those of us imprisoned by >>>>>>>> their one, sole interface. But we don't need to go so far as to say a >>>>>>>> drugged mind is more capable of perceiving the real reality. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 17:16, Prof David West wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you assume, or believe, that the mind (body-brain-embodied >>>>>>>>> mind-Atman) naturally processes 100% of the inputs and assume/believe >>>>>>>>> that a survival enhancing mechanism filters that stream to create the >>>>>>>>> illusionary subset that we call Reality, then entheogens work to >>>>>>>>> dismantle the filtering mechanism and expose the Real Reality. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Missing in my first post was a hidden premise, that any augmentations >>>>>>>>> (Neuralink, et. al.) are almost certainly based on whatever we think >>>>>>>>> we understand of the filtering mechanism, not the Mind, and therefore >>>>>>>>> would augment/enhance that mechanism and therefore lead to results >>>>>>>>> opposite of what is desired. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The missing premise is pretty much conjecture on my part but is >>>>>>>>> grounded in an advanced, but not expert, understanding of AI and >>>>>>>>> neural network technologies; so it should be taken with a tablespoon >>>>>>>>> (thousands of grains) of salt. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> davew >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, at 11:22 AM, glen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Opposite of what? I don't understand how augmentation is the >>>>>>>>>> opposite of the entheogens (drugs or meditation). Are you saying >>>>>>>>>> that, e.g. the Mojo Lens or Neuralink further restrict, whereas >>>>>>>>>> the entheogens lessen the restriction? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If so, then my guess is you could do the same sort of >>>>>>>>>> restriction modulation with any augmentation device. E.g. if >>>>>>>>>> there are 1 billion possible data feeds you could receive, >>>>>>>>>> decreasing them is like an undrugged person self-censoring and >>>>>>>>>> such, then increasing them is like taking a entheogen ... that is, >>>>>>>>>> assuming Church-Turing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If we reject C-T, then it seems reasonable to argue that the >>>>>>>>>> body "computes" something that any computer-based augmentation >>>>>>>>>> would restrict, by definition, making it impossible to expand >>>>>>>>>> beyond what the augment provides. Computer-based augmentaiton >>>>>>>>>> would provide a hard limit ... an unavoidable abstraction/subset of >>>>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/22 19:04, Prof David West wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The hallucino-philia (and Buddhist epistemologists) would argue >>>>>>>>>>> that our brains (minds) already fully grasp / cognize / perceive >>>>>>>>>>> our physical reality. But, for survival purposes, it self-censors >>>>>>>>>>> and presents our consciousness/awareness/attention with a small >>>>>>>>>>> abstract subset of that reality—an illusion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Drugs and meditation are 'subtractive' in that they dismantle the >>>>>>>>>>> abstraction/reduction apparatus that generates the illusion hiding >>>>>>>>>>> our 'full-grasping'. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If such a belief were "true" then "augmenting our brains" would be >>>>>>>>>>> the exact opposite, and exceedingly harmful, approach ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... unless, the augmentation was a permanent [lsd | >>>>>>>>>>> psylocibin | mescaline] drip. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. >>>> .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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