Yes, the topography is a metaphor, but, as I noted, simply one I like, mostly because it only tries to explain one piece of the "innards" you referenced.
I am in Saint Paul, Minnesota and, apparently unemployable. If you wish another substack within which to lurk, explore profwest.substack.com davew On Fri, May 9, 2025, at 11:49 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > Aw Dave. How great it is to hear from old friends! Where are you. How are > you!? > > But isn't the neural net itself a metaphor ... a model, if you will, of the > relation between input and output? And could I not generate another model, > just a useful that treats the input as the ocean and the out put as the > streams. Like water falls spilling over the edge of a filled caldera? > > On Fri, May 9, 2025 at 7:27 AM Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: >> __ >> OK Nick, You asked for it: >> >> I totally agree with you. >> >> As I believe you do, I think metaphor is absolutely essential, generalizing >> a bit on Quine's statement "at the fringe of science only metaphor can guide >> us" I would replace science with understanding. But when it comes to the >> brain, Mind, Consciousness, and Intelligence—no one has produced a useful or >> even usable metaphor that increases our understanding. >> >> The only point of departure, is I would find less fault with >> anthropomorphism than I do with the computational metaphor that dominates >> the conversation about brain-mind-intelligence. Mary is a mere imp compared >> to that Satan. >> >> I do like Hopfield's metaphor of a topographic surface that channels >> "rainfall" (inputs) to "oceans" (outputs) as an explanation for the >> operation of one possible bit of "innards," i.e., a neural net. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Fri, May 9, 2025, at 5:16 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>> Oh Gosh, Jochen. On the one hand I am deeply indebted to FRIAM members for >>> allowing me to noodle in areas of thought where I have no business; on the >>> other hand, I feel obligated not to hide from you how very, very bad I >>> think Mary C. Lamia’s thinking is. In the first place, lover of metaphors >>> that am, I think the anthropomorphism of the brain is one of the most >>> dangerous metaphors a human can bring to psychology, because it sets off an >>> eternal loop of thought from which there is no escape. Meteorology and >>> Psychology have much in common. They both have to do with objects with >>> innards operating in environments. With Psychology, the objects are human, >>> the innards are the guts and brain, and the environment is the people and >>> things around us. In Meteorology, the objects are the storms, the innards >>> are the fronts and other structures of cyclones, and the environment is the >>> earth’s surface and the larger circulation of its atmosphere. Perhaps I >>> feel drawn to Meteorology just because it seems so like a behavioral >>> science. (Or, to get the order of events right, I was drawn to Psychology >>> because it was so like Meteorology.) But we must keep our levels of >>> organization straight. And if we, like Mary C., are to make metaphors >>> between the whole (the person) and the part (the brain) and then to say >>> that the part is manipulating the whole, she ought to be damn clear what >>> kind of metaphorical world she his let herself into or she will never get >>> out alive. I don’t think she knows anything she is talking about. I would >>> be terrified if one of my college-aged grandchildren were to fall into the >>> hands of such a person. >>> >>> I am deeply sorry if I am being a jerk. (And will no doubt deeplier >>> sorrier when one of you points out both that I am both being a jerk and >>> that I am wrong). If you were tempted to carry on this conversation >>> further, now I have been a jerk, I would love to explore with you how some >>> aspect of Mary’s thought accorded with your experience and perhaps gave you >>> comfort or insight because of that. When she talks of the brain, what is >>> she actually talking about for you. Because, if one thing is damned sure, >>> it is that when people talk about their brains, they are talking about >>> something they have never touched or seen or heard or felt. They are >>> talking about a beetle in a box, a nothing. Or they are using the brain as >>> a model of behavior. >>> >>> OK, Russ, Dave, Glen, Marcus, Erics, have at me. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2025 2:10 PM >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Your personal truth >>> >>> If Nick shares his struggles with weather I can share my unqualified >>> thoughts about psychology :-P I was thinking about the orange menace, how >>> he deceives everyone and how he manipulates his followers by controlling >>> their emotions and I was wondering if emotions deceive us in general. Do >>> emotions deceive us by creating a reality distortion field that paints the >>> objects they have identified as desirable (primarily food & mates for >>> supper and pairing time) in the brightest colors? >>> >>> >>> Emotions certainly need to manipulate us in order to control us. Their >>> purpose is to influence our behavior and interactions. Psychologist Mary C. >>> Lamia writes "Without any deliberate effort on your part, your brain >>> evaluates every situation you encounter and decides if an emotion should be >>> activated to alert and protect you" [1]. They are in a sense the PR machine >>> and advertising agency of the body. As if the body would create an >>> advertising agency that highlights the objects it should seek. >>> >>> >>> Emotions deceive us because they exaggerate. If we are in love they turn >>> the desired object of person into some kind of wonderful dream. We only >>> perceive positive traits while negative ones are overlooked. If we hate >>> something we only perceive negative traits. These distortions act on top of >>> your beliefs which "create a cognitive lens through which you interpret the >>> events of your world" [2] >>> >>> >>> They exaggerate to alert and protect us. Mary C. Lamia writes "By creating >>> anxiety, anger, sadness, fear, guilt, shame, disgust, embarrassment, or any >>> number of emotional responses that your brain has at its disposal, your >>> emotional system attempts to inform and protect you by making you feel >>> whatever it is you need to know." [1] >>> >>> >>> Emotions deceive us because they can be misguided based on your previous >>> experience, for example in anxiety disorders or addiction: "Your emotional >>> system has no reason to lie, although it can be misguided based on your >>> previous experiences in the world that have informed it." [1] >>> >>> >>> Apparently emotions create a personal truth for each of us which shows us >>> the world as they (on behalf of our selfish genes) want us to see it. A >>> kind of personalized, distorted version of reality that reflects the >>> importance of each object based on our personal longings and desires. Mary >>> C. Lamia writes "nevertheless, your emotions will tell you the truth - your >>> truth - even if you don't want to listen." [1] >>> >>> >>> [1] >>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201208/do-emotions-lie >>> >>> >>> [2] >>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-forward/202009/how-your-thinking-creates-your-reality >>> >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > [email protected] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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