Pieter -This is what I consider the "best of the list", even above some of the very well thought through technical conversations around simulation and complexity science and some of the more interesting speculations around topics as esoteric and fraught as consciousness and free will. Grounded field reports from those with similar backgrounds (education, technical interests) but likely differing socio-cultural perspectives provide me with the most interesting parallax. I really appreciated (by the way) Mohammed El Betagy's reports from the Arab Spring straight from the halls of Cairo University back in 2008/9 ish? I believe he has long since abandoned (contributing/reading?) this list, but still encounter him through shared professional circles...
Your thorough and thoughtful reflection on your own context really brought out the vibrancy I wanted to imagine that the "remote post-colonial outpost" of SA can represent. I spent 1 month in New Zealand, the first two weeks in the home of a SA couple (professor @ Waikito) from SA who were doing home-exchange while they were back home for a holiday visit (Xmas/NY 2000) and got a strong sense through them and their extended family (who managed our stay in their absence) of strong similarities and affinities between SA and NZ, both seemingly a bit of a kinder-gentler variation on Australians (who I only met as service workers in NZ and visiting scientists at LANL over the years) who are themselves generally quite familiar to the (now mostly tamed) frontier culture of the American West, but with more colorful (to me) idioms and accents. I am identified with but ashamed of (most of) my frontier roots/embedding... a confident can-do attitude for all it's charm gets very ugly when based in ignorant willfulness (or willful ignorance, depending on your class embedding).
I am glad to hear that there is a widespread? attempt/motivation across government and civil society in SA to find socio-economic-cultural balance in the present which doesn't require denying or perpetuating the wrongs of the past. My limited understanding of the ANC is that it itself is in it's own struggle between continuity/progress. I am glad to hear that Ramaphosa represents significant hope to you in the spirit of progress (whatever progress actually means in any given context).
The turmoil and struggles of SA seem much more acute and recent than our own, though perhaps there is no way to compare a bloated superpower in decline with something like your own country. The stories of your own children and families is heartening... my own two daughters (mid 40s now) has a similar texture but with less (obvious) opportunity for emigration (or expatriation). No personal networks outside of the US. The *technical barriers" to being "global citizens" are lower than ever as is perhaps the sociopoliticalcultural motivation of the moment with a rogue mis(everything)is party running roughshod over our institutions, norms and conventional allies.
My eldest, a molecular biologist specializing in mosquito-borne (flavi) virus research is facing an imminent collapse of funding (thank you RFKjr) and therefore a massive career change at an inconvenient time in her personal life (newly purchased home, first grade child, new dog). She is afraid to take seriously the possibility that she could continue the arc of her work outside the US but after a month or so of letting the (bad) news settle around the pulling of her funding, she is more open to it. Her professional network within her field (flavi and virology in general) is good and we are hoping that this will yield good results as she pursues more direct routes. She is at her happiest in an academic wet lab culturing things that might make the third world a better place, but her mid-career opportunities appear to mostly be middle-management in big pharma helping billionaires edge into trillionaire territory.
I was unaware of Ramaphosa's visit to Trump... I'll keep my eyes/ears open for the echoes.
thanks, - Steve On 5/19/25 3:20 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I’d like to add a few thoughts about South African President Cyril Ramaphosa, who is visiting Donald Trump today.I’m deeply proud of two of our presidents since the dawn of democracy: Nelson Mandela and Cyril Ramaphosa. But for now, I’ll focus on Ramaphosa. He has an extraordinary track record as a skilled negotiator. As a young lawyer, he not only founded the powerful mineworkers’ union in South Africa, but also negotiated with the mining bosses with remarkable finesse. Even then, he demonstrated wisdom beyond his years—he knew when to push and when to hold back. In Trump’s language, he understood he didn’t have the cards, and chose not to overplay his hand, avoiding a situation where everyone would have lost—even though he had the support of the Black mineworkers to do just that.Later, as the ANC’s chief negotiator during South Africa’s transition to democracy, he outmaneuvered the ruling National Party. He helped deliver a settlement that included full universal suffrage—a major concession the National Party had long resisted, especially since it offered no special protections for the white minority that was a big line that the National Party did not want to violate.Unfortunately, the presidency of Jacob Zuma did significant damage to both the country and the ANC. Corruption flourished, and many unsavory elements infiltrated the party. Ramaphosa inherited that mess and, in my view, is doing a remarkable job of restoring integrity and accountability—although it’s not without cost. One example is his support for the expropriation without compensation bill, which I believe is a deeply misguided step.Still, for me, Ramaphosa is a true hero. I’m grateful that he is leading South Africa right now.I would love to be a fly on the wall during his meeting with Trump today.On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 08:33, Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]> wrote:I would like to begin by briefly addressing Steve’s specific questions before sharing my broader experience of life in South Africa. First, I strongly refute Donald Trump’s claim that white South African farmers are widely subjected to personal violence, leading to their deaths and the confiscation of their land. That narrative is simply not true. Yes, farm murders do occur and are more than isolated incidents. While there might be a small political component to some of them, I believe they are primarily criminal in nature. South Africa has implemented a structured land restitution program, through which many white farmers have been compensated fairly for their land. A law was passed last year allowing land expropriation without compensation under certain circumstances, but to the best of my knowledge, it has not yet been applied. It is certainly not a free-for-all license for Black South Africans to seize white-owned farmland. Should expropriation be implemented, I believe it will be in very limited cases, based on sound reasoning, and executed in an orderly, legal manner. There is also a Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) program in South Africa, which many Afrikaners view as reverse discrimination. I have mixed feelings about BEE and support it reluctantly. On the one hand, the economic disparities between Blacks and Whites must be addressed — it is a sine qua non for building a fair society. On the other hand, the BEE program has notable shortcomings. However, since I cannot offer a better alternative, I support it despite its flaws. I do, however, criticize aspects of the program and acknowledge its unintended negative consequences. Please keep in mind that these are my personal views. Many white Afrikaners hold very different opinions — you’ll often hear their voices on popular American podcasts these days. Now, let me share my general experience of living in South Africa. As in the United States, South Africa is not one single experience — there are many different “South Africas.” I live on a farm just outside the small town of Gouritsmond in the Western Cape, and I feel very safe here. The crime rate is low, and there is a high level of trust between people of all races. For example, a local farmer sells honey from a box at his gate on the honour system — you take a bottle and leave the money in a box. For my wife and me, our life on the farm is paradise. But there are other parts of South Africa where life is very different. In many deep rural areas and urban townships, especially around major cities, Black South Africans live in appalling conditions. The social fabric is weak, and crime — including violent crime — is rampant. However, if you choose not to spend time in these areas, it generally doesn’t affect your daily life. But if you do, you are at high risk of becoming a crime statistic. That said, if you are educated — and there are now probably more educated Black South Africans than Whites — you are not bound to those dangerous areas. There are plenty of safe, livable areas where people of all backgrounds can lead happy and fulfilling lives. Let me give you some examples from my own family. My wife and I have three married children. Our son lives and works in Johannesburg. While he might be open to emigrating, I don’t think his wife is — they are deeply embedded in a strong, active community and would have to give up a lot to leave. Recently, the small company he works for was acquired by a Boston-based firm. He assures us there are no plans to relocate, but I’m not so sure. As newlyweds, they spent two years in Boston and, although they have nothing against it, their hearts are in South Africa. Our eldest daughter, her husband, and their two young sons have emigrated to Denmark. It seems unlikely they will return to South Africa, except for visits. They met as students and, after graduating, took a month-long holiday in London. They came back inspired and determined to find a country where they would want to live and work. Over the next few years, they travelled widely and studied different cultures before deciding that Denmark ticked all the boxes. They made a plan, followed through, and are now very happy there. Our youngest daughter also lives in Johannesburg with her husband and children. They, too, have a vibrant community life. Even if the opportunity arose, I cannot imagine them choosing to emigrate. Her husband’s mother, perhaps compensating for the lack of warmth in her own marriage, now pours all her care into supporting their children — our grandchildren. Our daughter is currently expecting another baby, and it would make no sense for them to move abroad under these circumstances. I believe my children’s situations are typical of young families within my social circle in South Africa. Those who wish to stay can build a fulfilling life here. Those who wish to leave have options. Perhaps this will change in the future, but it has been true for the past few decades. In conclusion, I want to reference Nietzsche’s concept of the interplay between chaos and order. While a fulfilling life requires a balance between the two, that balance differs from person to person. Some are more comfortable with order; others thrive amid chaos. Many Afrikaners long for the perceived order of apartheid-era South Africa and struggle to adapt to the more chaotic reality of the present — and, sadly, racism often plays a role in these sentiments. I am ashamed to admit that, because these are my people. But not all Afrikaners are racist. My family, for example, are not — my daughter and her family simply prefer the orderly nature of life in Denmark - there really is no racism attached to this. Others, however, embrace the dynamic, changing environment of South Africa, and find meaning in its challenges and opportunities. On Sun, 18 May 2025 at 20:18, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: Pieter - > I'm an Afrikaner living on a farm in South Africa. I recently came > across some of the claims circulating—especially from the Trump > camp—about how dire things supposedly are for white Afrikaner farmers > here. Do you actually refute Trump's characterizations? Like his statements effectively painting all Mexicans (immigrant or not?) as "criminals and rapists", his statements suggest that there is widespread personal violence against white South African farmers leading to their death and then to confiscation of their land. Is there any evidence that this *ever* happens? Or are there isolated incidents of criminal violence (people are murdered everywhere in the world from time to time) juxtaposed with culture/government-wide movements to provide some level of restitution for the manner in which land was transferred from indigenous peoples to colonists (of all stripes... e.g. wealthy and powerful as well as those drawn along by them to do the dirty work of breaking and working new land including possibly displacing the current residents)? > Just to set the record straight: I don't identify with that narrative. > Personally, I live very happily on the farm. I don’t farm — I'm here > for the lifestyle, not agriculture — and to me, it honestly feels like > paradise. I don’t feel threatened at all. > Of course, not all white farmers in South Africa have the same > experience. Some do face real challenges, and discrimination does > exist. But the situation is complex, and like in every society, there > are both positives and negatives. No country is perfect. I also live on a plot of rural land which is nominally "farmland" though the only farming that has occurred here is a homestead garden (60' diameter circle), a handful of fruit trees and a small flock of chickens, all established by myself through my 25 years present. My 1.5 acres is roughly 1/5 of 6 acres that were carved out of the middle of a sovereign "pueblo" that was "granted" by the King of Spain in 1623 to the Tewa speaking people living here, very likely direct descendents of the "ancestral puebloans" (formerly termed "Anasazi"). The grant stated "1 league in each cardinal direction from the entrance to the cemetary of the Catholic church). this measure (nearly) abuts another 4-league-square granted at the same time by the same time with the same "stride" (vara) which defined what a league was (5000 varas - 2.6 miles)... Mine was *taken* from the pueblo in the early 60s by the private electric company serving much of NM (PNM) to build a transformer station which was in fact never built. I couldn't find records but standard practice (and law) at the time would have involved a (forced) payment to the Pueblo. In the 70s the first private title to the whole plot showed up under the name of a couple and a single man who apparently were contriving to build a modest mobile home (aka trailer) park on the property. My well and the electric power feed (a co=op not PNM) were sized for this purpose (for better and worse). Ultimately the mobile home park failed to materialize and the property was subdivided into my 1.5 acres and 4 other plots just over 1 acre each. 3 of those plots now have modern construction/styled commuter homes owned by folks who were commuting to LANL (as I was when I bought in 2001) 15 miles up the hill. I believe that the Pueblo had the opportunity to reclaim the land at the point it was sold into private hands and missed it (likely for the price they were paid). > I just wanted to say: yes, I’m a white Afrikaner living on a farm in > South Africa—but I’m not one of those Trump talks about. For me, this > is the best place on earth. I can imagine that it is similar but quite different from my own experience here. Another Pieter from South Africa (Mathematician at LANL) declares that the only place he finds more beautiful than his homeland of SA is right here. I think he is at least partly referencing the distance from the Apartheid context he grew up in (but left for college at 18) and the *opportunities* he found a US national laboratory with (historically) good funding and broad areas of application for a pure mathematician (working in the T/Theoretical Division). My main purpose in opening this response to your statements about Trump's characterization of Afrikaner "refugees" is to reflect on the implications of European, exploration, colonization, the ensuing displacements and genocide of indigenous populations followed by variations on "Apartheid" as well as the importation of literal *enslaved peoples* and the related "indentured servitude" and "company store" tactics that the capitalist/ruling class often uses to establish and maintain a virtually free workforce. My acutely "Conservative" friends would call my self reflection on such topics "Liberal Self-Loathing" when in fact I experience it as an attempt to reflect on my place and part in history (including future-history) and looking for opportunities *within my jurisdiction* to act differently than I might if I bought into one of the outstanding narratives. My 3 modestly MAGA neighbors hold that "this was an original Spanish Homestead passed down generationally" ,in spite of all of our Title histories when purchased showing the PNM (first) title. It is also the case that our area was entirely unbuildable (or farmable) before the US highway right next to us was built, redirecting floodwaters. Our properties were essentially a (mild) floodplain which are now protected by the roadbed which directs the water through everal culverts, collecting the runoff into one large and two small arroyos. The pueblo acequias end about 200 meters uphill from us in a field intermittently planted with (ritual) corn. We have an acutely high water table because of our topography and proximity to the Rio Grande so pumped well irrigation is reasonable in spite of the landscape being acutely dry high-desert in a growing drought context. Reviews of the maps of the Pueblo reflect the incremental addition of 3 acequias (irrigation ditches) over the 17,18,19c opening up significantly more land for irrigation farming. Many argue that the land was "useless" until the Spanish Colonists (aka Conquistadors) built these acequias (designed after the Moorish tradition/style) and therefore should "belong" to the Spanish Colonists who directed the natives themselves in the construction of the acequias. Of course, the conquistadors brought no women with them in the early waves of conquest so all descendants of proud Spanish noblemen are very much indigenous genetically. For the most part the "land grants" held through the Mexican revolution and then the Mexican-American war and US Territoriality in 1848. There are very few Tewa surnames remaining in the pueblos, most are Spanish, and there are a very few distinctly European Spanish descendants among the local populations. The boundaries of the pueblos have expanded a little through various US grants and trades to include their traditional range... to include some of their hunting grounds in the mountains *outside* the 2 leagues square. Many pueblo members live off pueblo, unrecognizeably different than many of the Hispanic and even Anglo populations. My "liberal self-loathing" instinct is to repatriate the land I bought 25 years ago to the Pueblo in some way. Their own governance is dysfunctional enough as are their attempts to *buy* back inholdings such as mine that I am not clear on how to do that without making a bigger mess. There is a Tewa Womens Alliance which formed 40 years ago originally to respond to domestic violence within the native families which has expanded their charter to do quite a few progressive things including re-establishing traditional farming and craft techniques and preserve the Tewa language (there are 4 distantly related puebloan language groups in the region). I believe they might be able to parlay my little "homestead" into something which vaguely supports the people that it nominally belonged to when De Vargas and Onate (later) came charging in with "guns, germs, steel" 500 years ago. I was fascinated, BTW to discover that your own (Capetown) European history predates even Columbus' journey with a visit in 1488 by Dias... the complexity of Portuquese, Dutch, French Huguenaut, English exploration/colonization is quite fascinating and at least as hard to untangle as any. The bigger question is how to embrace the complexity and diversity that comes with these overlays of overlays without compounding the errors of the past. If Trump's framing of the Afrikaner "plight" is accurate then someone has been perpetuating the original problem in a (tiny) way similar to what the victims of the Jewish Holocaust are perpetrating on the Palestinians (particularly Gaza at this moment). The only "open" hostilities amongst the folks in this region express themselves moslty in struggles over water rights and roadway and utility right-of-ways with the Spanish land-grant descendants mostly antagonistic with the Pueblos. Most Anglos recognize they are latecomers and that for the most part the legal system supports them (us) well. Our (Euro-American colonists) genocide and slavery history does not leave us much room for criticizing others... most of the ugliness is well hidden but non-trivial. - Steve .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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