Apologies, it appears I got the day wrong — the meeting between Ramaphosa and Trump is actually scheduled for Wednesday.
On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 20:08, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > Pieter - > > This is what I consider the "best of the list", even above some of the > very well thought through technical conversations around simulation and > complexity science and some of the more interesting speculations around > topics as esoteric and fraught as consciousness and free will. Grounded > field reports from those with similar backgrounds (education, technical > interests) but likely differing socio-cultural perspectives provide me with > the most interesting parallax. I really appreciated (by the way) Mohammed > El Betagy's reports from the Arab Spring straight from the halls of Cairo > University back in 2008/9 ish? I believe he has long since abandoned > (contributing/reading?) this list, but still encounter him through shared > professional circles... > > Your thorough and thoughtful reflection on your own context really brought > out the vibrancy I wanted to imagine that the "remote post-colonial > outpost" of SA can represent. I spent 1 month in New Zealand, the first > two weeks in the home of a SA couple (professor @ Waikito) from SA who were > doing home-exchange while they were back home for a holiday visit (Xmas/NY > 2000) and got a strong sense through them and their extended family (who > managed our stay in their absence) of strong similarities and affinities > between SA and NZ, both seemingly a bit of a kinder-gentler variation on > Australians (who I only met as service workers in NZ and visiting > scientists at LANL over the years) who are themselves generally quite > familiar to the (now mostly tamed) frontier culture of the American West, > but with more colorful (to me) idioms and accents. I am identified with > but ashamed of (most of) my frontier roots/embedding... a confident can-do > attitude for all it's charm gets very ugly when based in ignorant > willfulness (or willful ignorance, depending on your class embedding). > > I am glad to hear that there is a widespread? attempt/motivation across > government and civil society in SA to find socio-economic-cultural balance > in the present which doesn't require denying or perpetuating the wrongs of > the past. My limited understanding of the ANC is that it itself is in > it's own struggle between continuity/progress. I am glad to hear that > Ramaphosa represents significant hope to you in the spirit of progress > (whatever progress actually means in any given context). > > The turmoil and struggles of SA seem much more acute and recent than our > own, though perhaps there is no way to compare a bloated superpower in > decline with something like your own country. The stories of your own > children and families is heartening... my own two daughters (mid 40s now) > has a similar texture but with less (obvious) opportunity for emigration > (or expatriation). No personal networks outside of the US. The > *technical barriers" to being "global citizens" are lower than ever as is > perhaps the sociopoliticalcultural motivation of the moment with a rogue > mis(everything)is party running roughshod over our institutions, norms and > conventional allies. > > My eldest, a molecular biologist specializing in mosquito-borne (flavi) > virus research is facing an imminent collapse of funding (thank you RFKjr) > and therefore a massive career change at an inconvenient time in her > personal life (newly purchased home, first grade child, new dog). She is > afraid to take seriously the possibility that she could continue the arc of > her work outside the US but after a month or so of letting the (bad) news > settle around the pulling of her funding, she is more open to it. Her > professional network within her field (flavi and virology in general) is > good and we are hoping that this will yield good results as she pursues > more direct routes. She is at her happiest in an academic wet lab > culturing things that might make the third world a better place, but her > mid-career opportunities appear to mostly be middle-management in big > pharma helping billionaires edge into trillionaire territory. > > I was unaware of Ramaphosa's visit to Trump... I'll keep my eyes/ears > open for the echoes. > > thanks, > > - Steve > > > On 5/19/25 3:20 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > I’d like to add a few thoughts about South African President Cyril > Ramaphosa, who is visiting Donald Trump today. > > I’m deeply proud of two of our presidents since the dawn of democracy: > Nelson Mandela and Cyril Ramaphosa. But for now, I’ll focus on Ramaphosa. > He has an extraordinary track record as a skilled negotiator. As a young > lawyer, he not only founded the powerful mineworkers’ union in South > Africa, but also negotiated with the mining bosses with remarkable finesse. > Even then, he demonstrated wisdom beyond his years—he knew when to push and > when to hold back. In Trump’s language, he understood he didn’t have the > cards, and chose not to overplay his hand, avoiding a situation where > everyone would have lost—even though he had the support of the Black > mineworkers to do just that. > > Later, as the ANC’s chief negotiator during South Africa’s transition to > democracy, he outmaneuvered the ruling National Party. He helped deliver a > settlement that included full universal suffrage—a major concession the > National Party had long resisted, especially since it offered no special > protections for the white minority that was a big line that the National > Party did not want to violate. > > Unfortunately, the presidency of Jacob Zuma did significant damage to both > the country and the ANC. Corruption flourished, and many unsavory elements > infiltrated the party. Ramaphosa inherited that mess and, in my view, is > doing a remarkable job of restoring integrity and accountability—although > it’s not without cost. One example is his support for the expropriation > without compensation bill, which I believe is a deeply misguided step. > > Still, for me, Ramaphosa is a true hero. I’m grateful that he is leading > South Africa right now. > > I would love to be a fly on the wall during his meeting with Trump today. > > On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 08:33, Pieter Steenekamp < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I would like to begin by briefly addressing Steve’s specific questions >> before sharing my broader experience of life in South Africa. >> >> First, I strongly refute Donald Trump’s claim that white South African >> farmers are widely subjected to personal violence, leading to their deaths >> and the confiscation of their land. That narrative is simply not true. Yes, >> farm murders do occur and are more than isolated incidents. While there >> might be a small political component to some of them, I believe they are >> primarily criminal in nature. >> >> South Africa has implemented a structured land restitution program, >> through which many white farmers have been compensated fairly for their >> land. A law was passed last year allowing land expropriation without >> compensation under certain circumstances, but to the best of my knowledge, >> it has not yet been applied. It is certainly not a free-for-all license for >> Black South Africans to seize white-owned farmland. Should expropriation be >> implemented, I believe it will be in very limited cases, based on sound >> reasoning, and executed in an orderly, legal manner. >> >> There is also a Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) program in South Africa, >> which many Afrikaners view as reverse discrimination. I have mixed feelings >> about BEE and support it reluctantly. On the one hand, the economic >> disparities between Blacks and Whites must be addressed — it is a sine qua >> non for building a fair society. On the other hand, the BEE program has >> notable shortcomings. However, since I cannot offer a better alternative, I >> support it despite its flaws. I do, however, criticize aspects of the >> program and acknowledge its unintended negative consequences. >> >> Please keep in mind that these are my personal views. Many white >> Afrikaners hold very different opinions — you’ll often hear their voices on >> popular American podcasts these days. >> >> Now, let me share my general experience of living in South Africa. >> >> As in the United States, South Africa is not one single experience — >> there are many different “South Africas.” I live on a farm just outside the >> small town of Gouritsmond in the Western Cape, and I feel very safe here. >> The crime rate is low, and there is a high level of trust between people of >> all races. For example, a local farmer sells honey from a box at his gate >> on the honour system — you take a bottle and leave the money in a box. For >> my wife and me, our life on the farm is paradise. >> >> But there are other parts of South Africa where life is very different. >> >> In many deep rural areas and urban townships, especially around major >> cities, Black South Africans live in appalling conditions. The social >> fabric is weak, and crime — including violent crime — is rampant. However, >> if you choose not to spend time in these areas, it generally doesn’t affect >> your daily life. But if you do, you are at high risk of becoming a crime >> statistic. >> >> That said, if you are educated — and there are now probably more educated >> Black South Africans than Whites — you are not bound to those dangerous >> areas. There are plenty of safe, livable areas where people of all >> backgrounds can lead happy and fulfilling lives. >> >> Let me give you some examples from my own family. >> >> My wife and I have three married children. Our son lives and works in >> Johannesburg. While he might be open to emigrating, I don’t think his wife >> is — they are deeply embedded in a strong, active community and would have >> to give up a lot to leave. Recently, the small company he works for was >> acquired by a Boston-based firm. He assures us there are no plans to >> relocate, but I’m not so sure. As newlyweds, they spent two years in Boston >> and, although they have nothing against it, their hearts are in South >> Africa. >> >> Our eldest daughter, her husband, and their two young sons have emigrated >> to Denmark. It seems unlikely they will return to South Africa, except for >> visits. They met as students and, after graduating, took a month-long >> holiday in London. They came back inspired and determined to find a country >> where they would want to live and work. Over the next few years, they >> travelled widely and studied different cultures before deciding that >> Denmark ticked all the boxes. They made a plan, followed through, and are >> now very happy there. >> >> Our youngest daughter also lives in Johannesburg with her husband and >> children. They, too, have a vibrant community life. Even if the opportunity >> arose, I cannot imagine them choosing to emigrate. Her husband’s mother, >> perhaps compensating for the lack of warmth in her own marriage, now pours >> all her care into supporting their children — our grandchildren. Our >> daughter is currently expecting another baby, and it would make no sense >> for them to move abroad under these circumstances. >> >> I believe my children’s situations are typical of young families within >> my social circle in South Africa. Those who wish to stay can build a >> fulfilling life here. Those who wish to leave have options. Perhaps this >> will change in the future, but it has been true for the past few decades. >> >> In conclusion, I want to reference Nietzsche’s concept of the interplay >> between chaos and order. >> >> While a fulfilling life requires a balance between the two, that balance >> differs from person to person. Some are more comfortable with order; others >> thrive amid chaos. >> >> Many Afrikaners long for the perceived order of apartheid-era South >> Africa and struggle to adapt to the more chaotic reality of the present — >> and, sadly, racism often plays a role in these sentiments. I am ashamed to >> admit that, because these are my people. But not all Afrikaners are racist. >> My family, for example, are not — my daughter and her family simply prefer >> the orderly nature of life in Denmark - there really is no racism attached >> to this. >> >> Others, however, embrace the dynamic, changing environment of South >> Africa, and find meaning in its challenges and opportunities. >> >> >> On Sun, 18 May 2025 at 20:18, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Pieter - >>> > I'm an Afrikaner living on a farm in South Africa. I recently came >>> > across some of the claims circulating—especially from the Trump >>> > camp—about how dire things supposedly are for white Afrikaner farmers >>> > here. >>> >>> Do you actually refute Trump's characterizations? >>> >>> Like his statements effectively painting all Mexicans (immigrant or >>> not?) as "criminals and rapists", his statements suggest that there is >>> widespread personal violence against white South African farmers leading >>> to their death and then to confiscation of their land. Is there any >>> evidence that this *ever* happens? Or are there isolated incidents of >>> criminal violence (people are murdered everywhere in the world from time >>> to time) juxtaposed with culture/government-wide movements to provide >>> some level of restitution for the manner in which land was transferred >>> from indigenous peoples to colonists (of all stripes... e.g. wealthy and >>> powerful as well as those drawn along by them to do the dirty work of >>> breaking and working new land including possibly displacing the current >>> residents)? >>> >>> > Just to set the record straight: I don't identify with that narrative. >>> > Personally, I live very happily on the farm. I don’t farm — I'm here >>> > for the lifestyle, not agriculture — and to me, it honestly feels like >>> > paradise. I don’t feel threatened at all. >>> > Of course, not all white farmers in South Africa have the same >>> > experience. Some do face real challenges, and discrimination does >>> > exist. But the situation is complex, and like in every society, there >>> > are both positives and negatives. No country is perfect. >>> I also live on a plot of rural land which is nominally "farmland" though >>> the only farming that has occurred here is a homestead garden (60' >>> diameter circle), a handful of fruit trees and a small flock of >>> chickens, all established by myself through my 25 years present. My 1.5 >>> acres is roughly 1/5 of 6 acres that were carved out of the middle of a >>> sovereign "pueblo" that was "granted" by the King of Spain in 1623 to >>> the Tewa speaking people living here, very likely direct descendents of >>> the "ancestral puebloans" (formerly termed "Anasazi"). The grant >>> stated "1 league in each cardinal direction from the entrance to the >>> cemetary of the Catholic church). this measure (nearly) abuts another >>> 4-league-square granted at the same time by the same time with the same >>> "stride" (vara) which defined what a league was (5000 varas - 2.6 >>> miles)... Mine was *taken* from the pueblo in the early 60s by the >>> private electric company serving much of NM (PNM) to build a transformer >>> station which was in fact never built. I couldn't find records but >>> standard practice (and law) at the time would have involved a (forced) >>> payment to the Pueblo. In the 70s the first private title to the >>> whole plot showed up under the name of a couple and a single man who >>> apparently were contriving to build a modest mobile home (aka trailer) >>> park on the property. My well and the electric power feed (a co=op not >>> PNM) were sized for this purpose (for better and worse). Ultimately >>> the mobile home park failed to materialize and the property was >>> subdivided into my 1.5 acres and 4 other plots just over 1 acre each. 3 >>> of those plots now have modern construction/styled commuter homes owned >>> by folks who were commuting to LANL (as I was when I bought in 2001) 15 >>> miles up the hill. I believe that the Pueblo had the opportunity to >>> reclaim the land at the point it was sold into private hands and missed >>> it (likely for the price they were paid). >>> > I just wanted to say: yes, I’m a white Afrikaner living on a farm in >>> > South Africa—but I’m not one of those Trump talks about. For me, this >>> > is the best place on earth. >>> >>> I can imagine that it is similar but quite different from my own >>> experience here. Another Pieter from South Africa (Mathematician at >>> LANL) declares that the only place he finds more beautiful than his >>> homeland of SA is right here. I think he is at least partly >>> referencing the distance from the Apartheid context he grew up in (but >>> left for college at 18) and the *opportunities* he found a US national >>> laboratory with (historically) good funding and broad areas of >>> application for a pure mathematician (working in the T/Theoretical >>> Division). >>> >>> My main purpose in opening this response to your statements about >>> Trump's characterization of Afrikaner "refugees" is to reflect on the >>> implications of European, exploration, colonization, the ensuing >>> displacements and genocide of indigenous populations followed by >>> variations on "Apartheid" as well as the importation of literal >>> *enslaved peoples* and the related "indentured servitude" and "company >>> store" tactics that the capitalist/ruling class often uses to establish >>> and maintain a virtually free workforce. >>> >>> My acutely "Conservative" friends would call my self reflection on such >>> topics "Liberal Self-Loathing" when in fact I experience it as an >>> attempt to reflect on my place and part in history (including >>> future-history) and looking for opportunities *within my jurisdiction* >>> to act differently than I might if I bought into one of the outstanding >>> narratives. My 3 modestly MAGA neighbors hold that "this was an >>> original Spanish Homestead passed down generationally" ,in spite of all >>> of our Title histories when purchased showing the PNM (first) title. >>> It is also the case that our area was entirely unbuildable (or farmable) >>> before the US highway right next to us was built, redirecting >>> floodwaters. Our properties were essentially a (mild) floodplain which >>> are now protected by the roadbed which directs the water through everal >>> culverts, collecting the runoff into one large and two small arroyos. >>> The pueblo acequias end about 200 meters uphill from us in a field >>> intermittently planted with (ritual) corn. We have an acutely high >>> water table because of our topography and proximity to the Rio Grande so >>> pumped well irrigation is reasonable in spite of the landscape being >>> acutely dry high-desert in a growing drought context. >>> >>> Reviews of the maps of the Pueblo reflect the incremental addition of 3 >>> acequias (irrigation ditches) over the 17,18,19c opening up >>> significantly more land for irrigation farming. Many argue that the >>> land was "useless" until the Spanish Colonists (aka Conquistadors) built >>> these acequias (designed after the Moorish tradition/style) and >>> therefore should "belong" to the Spanish Colonists who directed the >>> natives themselves in the construction of the acequias. Of course, the >>> conquistadors brought no women with them in the early waves of conquest >>> so all descendants of proud Spanish noblemen are very much indigenous >>> genetically. For the most part the "land grants" held through the >>> Mexican revolution and then the Mexican-American war and US >>> Territoriality in 1848. There are very few Tewa surnames remaining in >>> the pueblos, most are Spanish, and there are a very few distinctly >>> European Spanish descendants among the local populations. The >>> boundaries of the pueblos have expanded a little through various US >>> grants and trades to include their traditional range... to include some >>> of their hunting grounds in the mountains *outside* the 2 leagues >>> square. Many pueblo members live off pueblo, unrecognizeably different >>> than many of the Hispanic and even Anglo populations. >>> >>> My "liberal self-loathing" instinct is to repatriate the land I bought >>> 25 years ago to the Pueblo in some way. Their own governance is >>> dysfunctional enough as are their attempts to *buy* back inholdings such >>> as mine that I am not clear on how to do that without making a bigger >>> mess. There is a Tewa Womens Alliance which formed 40 years ago >>> originally to respond to domestic violence within the native families >>> which has expanded their charter to do quite a few progressive things >>> including re-establishing traditional farming and craft techniques and >>> preserve the Tewa language (there are 4 distantly related puebloan >>> language groups in the region). I believe they might be able to parlay >>> my little "homestead" into something which vaguely supports the people >>> that it nominally belonged to when De Vargas and Onate (later) came >>> charging in with "guns, germs, steel" 500 years ago. >>> >>> I was fascinated, BTW to discover that your own (Capetown) European >>> history predates even Columbus' journey with a visit in 1488 by >>> Dias... the complexity of Portuquese, Dutch, French Huguenaut, English >>> exploration/colonization is quite fascinating and at least as hard to >>> untangle as any. >>> >>> The bigger question is how to embrace the complexity and diversity that >>> comes with these overlays of overlays without compounding the errors of >>> the past. If Trump's framing of the Afrikaner "plight" is accurate then >>> someone has been perpetuating the original problem in a (tiny) way >>> similar to what the victims of the Jewish Holocaust are perpetrating on >>> the Palestinians (particularly Gaza at this moment). The only "open" >>> hostilities amongst the folks in this region express themselves moslty >>> in struggles over water rights and roadway and utility right-of-ways >>> with the Spanish land-grant descendants mostly antagonistic with the >>> Pueblos. Most Anglos recognize they are latecomers and that for the >>> most part the legal system supports them (us) well. >>> >>> Our (Euro-American colonists) genocide and slavery history does not >>> leave us much room for criticizing others... most of the ugliness is >>> well hidden but non-trivial. >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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