As someone mentioned it was a speech to his fellows, which affected the words. It often seems like an old boy's club, with everyone quoting each other.
However, I don't think there was a whole. He rambled a lot, didn't really make any point in a satisfactory way. It is assumed quite often that if something is presented in cabalistic fashion, it must be profound.
We may need that little boy who saw the Emperor wore no clothes.
I concede that I may simply not be intelligent enough, nor perhaps well-read enough, to understand the deep significance of what he wrote.
So, perhaps someone will tell me.
Harry
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Selma wrote:
Harry, It seems to me you've taken Shotter's quotes out of context and interpreted the pieces in a way that doesn't fit with, at least my reading, of the whole of what he had to say.I don't think he is saying that testing or science is bad or unnecessary; I don't think that is what he was saying at all. What I did read sounded not entirely different from what people like Wittgenstein, Bateson and others argue and that is that you cannot know about something until you get outside of it. You cannot deal with the problems of a theory unless you are willing to acknowledge that there may be problems with it and thereby allow yourself to get outside of it in order to have some perspective on it. Thomas Khun also deals with some of these issues when he talks about the ways in which paradigms change; they cannot change unless the context in which they are being used allows for the possibility that they may be inadequate; one has to think "outside the box" and that's not possible as long as one is locked into the theory itself. Selma ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Brian McAndrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:13 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] Re: Not ideological (was More crap again) > Brian, > > The "way of the theory" isn't at all bad. > > You observe, and see a possible relationship.You make a hypothesis, which > you test. If it tests out positively, you might raise it to a theory. If > your theory shows invariability, you might well raise it to a law, but that > isn't so likely - though to be desired. > > As I said, it doesn't seem at all bad to me. > > Yet Shotter feels we must throw it out to make room for - actually nothing, > not even a theory. In fact, worse, he doesn't seem to climb past that worst > of all possible worlds, the untestable hypothesis > > He quotes Kitto: > > "the universe, both the physical and the moral universe, must not only be > rational, and therefore knowable, but also simple; the apparent > multiplicity of things is only apparent" > > Well, you know the two assumptions I suggested preceded every science. They > don't have to stated. They are just assumed, because they must be. > > "There is an order in the universe." > > "The mind of Man can discover that order." > > If the opposite is assumed, there can be no science. In fact, anyone must > fear the very next moment, for it might be chaos. So the scientist proceeds > as if the assumptions are correct. > > He says: > > "the way of theory suggests to us that the primary source of all of our > human activities is, supposedly, to be found in mental representations > inside the heads of individuals" > > Manifestly ridiculous. We may hypothesize that is going to rain. But the > source of the hypothesis is observational. We see circumstances that lead > us to expect rain - from what we already have observed at other times. > > He says: > > "This leads on to a second point, a worry to do with the forming of human > communities: For the way of theory suggests to us that they come into being > through the forming of rational agreements - Rousseauian 'social > contracts'. In other words, it suggests that new forms of social relations > can be argued or administrated into existence. But, as Richard Bernstein > (1983) remarks, all attempts to implement 'the idea that we can make, > engineer, impose our collective will to form [new] communities... have been > disastrous" > > Again, rather doubtful, but he sets up a situation then argues against it. > Agreements follow the establishment of a community - agreements not to harm > each other, for example. > > But, in the "collective will" area, utopian communities are plentiful. They > fail mostly, but not necessarily, when the charismatic leader dies. > Religious communities often last for generations - and longer. > > If he refers to the failure of government power to do things, that's > another matter. > > His "eyes of a stranger" bit is much ado about nothing. The Pollards talk > to everyone, at any time, under all conditions. Our lives are enriched by > these contacts. Yet, we haven't lately met any Others, or Othernesses up on > the mountain recently. > > Today, by the water, we passed the time of day with a family we haven't met > before. We discussed the paths up the mountain, an alternative trail to the > top from Glendale, rain, snow, and whether the little girl took care of the > two twin sons. > > Then we went on up, and the family presumably went to their car. We enjoyed > the meet, but there was nothing darkly significant about it. > > I intended to cut him to pieces, but it's wearisome. > > I don't think he says very much, but he wraps anything he does say in a > torrent of words that obfuscate rather than announce any profundities. > > The amusing ting about what he says is that (as I said above) it is couched > in the manner of an hypothesis - an untestable hypothesis. > > If it were testable, it would perhaps march onward toward "the way of a > theory". > > Which would no doubt send him into a tizzy. > > Harry
****************************** Harry Pollard Henry George School of LA Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (818) 352-4141 Fax: (818) 353-2242 *******************************
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