Ed,
You wrote:
However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and perhaps
Quebecois
use may also be based on the fact that they don't want you, as an
outsider,
to know what they are saying.
Good point but more true for the highly educated than for the minimally
educated.
Mandeville is very pretty. The problem with St. Elizabeth is the drug
trade. Treasure Beach is not that bad off, I believe:
http://www.treasurebeach.net/
This is where we stayed during the field courses.
Bill
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:47:46 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi again Bill,
>
> I wanted to say more in my last email, but got called down to
> breakfast.
> The closest I got to St. Elizabeth was Mandeville, a beautiful
> little city
> in the uplands. Places I regret not having got to are the Cockpit
> Country
> and the Blue Mountains where escaped slaves, Maroons, established
> their
> communities, held off the British and finally negotiated peace
> treaties with
> them. My map of Jamaica shows me that the Cockpit Country is just
> to the
> north of St. Elizabeth Parish. However, it may not be a good place
> to go.
> My map tells me that the southwest corner of the Cockpit Country is
> known as
> "Me no sen you no come". Interesting name!
>
> On the matter of Patois, I've had similar experiences to your in
> Quebec. At
> one time, I was pretty good at French and could understand what
> people were
> saying to me, but there were cases in which I couldn't understand
> what they
> were saying to each other. What Quebecois use in the villages and
> on the
> streets may, as Ray suggests, be based on a more ancient form of
> French.
> However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and perhaps
> Quebecois
> use may also be based on the fact that they don't want you, as an
> outsider,
> to know what they are saying.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William B Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Futurework] Chinese as the world language? was: Re:
> [Futurework] Languages (fwd)
>
>
> > Ed,
> >
> > I have spent a lot of time in St. Elizabeth Parish in Jamaica and
> have
> > become accustomed to speaking with rural Jamaicans but when two
> rural
> > Jamaicans shift completely into Patawa [Patois], although it is
> English I
> > am hard pressed to follow. This is similar to a time when I was
> ordering
> > tickets at a counter in London. The guy who spoke perfect English
> [not
> > American], picked up the phone and switched into Cockney and I
> didn't get
> > anything.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:38:51 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> writes:
> > > Keith:
> > >
> > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will die
> in
> > > the end
> > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the developed
> world.
> > > When is
> > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy have
> > > given up
> > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English word
> > > imports.
> > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Dutch
> and
> > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because that's
> the
> > > language
> > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class
> Englishmen
> > > could
> > > put
> > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language.
> Once
> > > upon a time
> > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their own
> > > languages
> > > fairly
> > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never speak
> the
> > > languages.
> > >
> > > One has to appreciate that there is a difference between street
> > > French and
> > > the French spoken by the educated. My understanding is that
> the
> > > latter
> > > speak French, as in France, with perhaps some minor differences.
> My
> > > neice's
> > > daughter, who attends the French language University of
> Montreal, is
> > > off to
> > > the Sorbonne next year. She's already done some of her studies
> in
> > > France
> > > and has encountered no problems.
> > >
> > > It's interesting how languages evolve. When I was in Jamaica a
> few
> > > years
> > > ago, I had to go way back into the hill country to talk to some
> > > elderly
> > > people who had lived there all their lives. Though they spoke
> > > English, I
> > > could barely understand them. Another generation or so of
> > > isolation, and I
> > > might not be able to.
> > >
> > > Ed Weick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > At 10:39 22/08/2003 -0400, Ed Weick wrote:
> > > > >(KH)
> > > > >But surely, Prof Daniel Abrams' thesis is *not* valid. He is
> > > trying to
> > > > >maintain that minority languages can be protected. I
> originally
> > > wrote
> > > > >that this is not possible. PW, EW and I have each been
> saying
> > > that once a
> > > > >new way of life becomes communicable, tradable and
> geographically
> > > > >possible, then minority languages disappear. Prof Abrams
> would do
> > > better
> > > > >to spend his time and research money in recording as many
> > > minority
> > > > >languages as possible for future study and analysis, than
> trying
> > > to save
> > > > >them in the here and now while our present type of economic
> > > system is
> > > > >still sweeping the world.
> > > >
> > > > (EW)
> > > > >Much would seem to depend on the size, status and power of
> the
> > > linguistic
> > > > >group. There is no doubt in my mind that Quebec will
> maintain
> > > French and
> > > > >do its governing and business in French in the foreseeable
> > > future. The
> > > people
> > > > >it will deal with in Ottawa will have to be able to use
> French.
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will die
> in
> > > the end
> > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the developed
> world.
> > > When is
> > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy have
> > > given up
> > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English word
> > > imports.
> > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Dutch
> and
> > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because that's
> the
> > > language
> > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class
> Englishmen
> > > could
> > > put
> > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language.
> Once
> > > upon a time
> > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their own
> > > languages
> > > fairly
> > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never speak
> the
> > > languages.
> > > >
> > > > Although I think that English is a strong candidate as a
> world
> > > language, I
> > > > wouldn't bet on it. Chinese is a much stronger candidate in
> the
> > > longer
> > > > term. It is basically easier to learn than most others. It
> has
> > > lost all
> > > the
> > > > appendages that other languages still have -- conjugations,
> > > declensions,
> > > > irregular verbs, subjunctives, ablatives, and so on --
> nightmares
> > > that
> > > > plagues learners of most other languages. Chinese has also
> lost
> > > > inflections, cases, persons, genders, degrees, tenses,
> voices,
> > > moods,
> > > > affixes, infinitives, participles, gerunds and articles. It
> lost
> > > all these
> > > > in the course of several thousand years of a largely unified
> > > culture and
> > > > literature. There are no words of more than one syllable and
> > > every word
> > > > has only one form. It proceeds by means of subject and
> predicate
> > > -- that's
> > > > all -- and explicates by means of metaphors. Thousands of
> them.
> > > Tens of
> > > > thousands of them. More poetry has been written in Chinese
> than in
> > > any
> > > > other language.
> > > >
> > > > Chinese is just about the most finely chiselled language in
> the
> > > world --
> > > > the most fully developed. And when China gets to the
> forefront
> > > in
> > > science,
> > > > technology and commerce I think it will probably whop the
> confused
> > > and
> > > > convoluted language that we call English (much as I love it).
> > > >
> > > > Keith Hudson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England,
> > > > <www.evolutionary-economics.org>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Futurework mailing list
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> > >
> > >
> >
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