I tried to keep the participants in the villages so they wouldn't see how painful it was for me correcting their work in the sand.
Bill On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:36:19 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Treasure Beach must have been painful! > > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Chinese as the world language? was: Re: > [Futurework] Languages (fwd) > > > > Ed, > > > > You wrote: > > > > However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and > perhaps > > Quebecois > > use may also be based on the fact that they don't want > you, as an > > outsider, > > to know what they are saying. > > > > Good point but more true for the highly educated than for the > minimally > > educated. > > > > Mandeville is very pretty. The problem with St. Elizabeth is the > drug > > trade. Treasure Beach is not that bad off, I believe: > > > > http://www.treasurebeach.net/ > > > > This is where we stayed during the field courses. > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:47:46 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > > Hi again Bill, > > > > > > I wanted to say more in my last email, but got called down to > > > breakfast. > > > The closest I got to St. Elizabeth was Mandeville, a beautiful > > > little city > > > in the uplands. Places I regret not having got to are the > Cockpit > > > Country > > > and the Blue Mountains where escaped slaves, Maroons, > established > > > their > > > communities, held off the British and finally negotiated peace > > > treaties with > > > them. My map of Jamaica shows me that the Cockpit Country is > just > > > to the > > > north of St. Elizabeth Parish. However, it may not be a good > place > > > to go. > > > My map tells me that the southwest corner of the Cockpit Country > is > > > known as > > > "Me no sen you no come". Interesting name! > > > > > > On the matter of Patois, I've had similar experiences to your > in > > > Quebec. At > > > one time, I was pretty good at French and could understand what > > > people were > > > saying to me, but there were cases in which I couldn't > understand > > > what they > > > were saying to each other. What Quebecois use in the villages > and > > > on the > > > streets may, as Ray suggests, be based on a more ancient form > of > > > French. > > > However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and > perhaps > > > Quebecois > > > use may also be based on the fact that they don't want you, as > an > > > outsider, > > > to know what they are saying. > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "William B Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Chinese as the world language? was: > Re: > > > [Futurework] Languages (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > > > I have spent a lot of time in St. Elizabeth Parish in Jamaica > and > > > have > > > > become accustomed to speaking with rural Jamaicans but when > two > > > rural > > > > Jamaicans shift completely into Patawa [Patois], although it > is > > > English I > > > > am hard pressed to follow. This is similar to a time when I > was > > > ordering > > > > tickets at a counter in London. The guy who spoke perfect > English > > > [not > > > > American], picked up the phone and switched into Cockney and > I > > > didn't get > > > > anything. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:38:51 -0400 "Ed Weick" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > writes: > > > > > Keith: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will > die > > > in > > > > > the end > > > > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the > developed > > > world. > > > > > When is > > > > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy > have > > > > > given up > > > > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English > word > > > > > imports. > > > > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, > Dutch > > > and > > > > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because > that's > > > the > > > > > language > > > > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class > > > Englishmen > > > > > could > > > > > put > > > > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language. > > > Once > > > > > upon a time > > > > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their > own > > > > > languages > > > > > fairly > > > > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never > speak > > > the > > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > > > One has to appreciate that there is a difference between > street > > > > > French and > > > > > the French spoken by the educated. My understanding is > that > > > the > > > > > latter > > > > > speak French, as in France, with perhaps some minor > differences. > > > My > > > > > neice's > > > > > daughter, who attends the French language University of > > > Montreal, is > > > > > off to > > > > > the Sorbonne next year. She's already done some of her > studies > > > in > > > > > France > > > > > and has encountered no problems. > > > > > > > > > > It's interesting how languages evolve. When I was in > Jamaica a > > > few > > > > > years > > > > > ago, I had to go way back into the hill country to talk to > some > > > > > elderly > > > > > people who had lived there all their lives. Though they > spoke > > > > > English, I > > > > > could barely understand them. Another generation or so of > > > > > isolation, and I > > > > > might not be able to. > > > > > > > > > > Ed Weick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:39 22/08/2003 -0400, Ed Weick wrote: > > > > > > >(KH) > > > > > > >But surely, Prof Daniel Abrams' thesis is *not* valid. He > is > > > > > trying to > > > > > > >maintain that minority languages can be protected. I > > > originally > > > > > wrote > > > > > > >that this is not possible. PW, EW and I have each been > > > saying > > > > > that once a > > > > > > >new way of life becomes communicable, tradable and > > > geographically > > > > > > >possible, then minority languages disappear. Prof Abrams > > > would do > > > > > better > > > > > > >to spend his time and research money in recording as > many > > > > > minority > > > > > > >languages as possible for future study and analysis, > than > > > trying > > > > > to save > > > > > > >them in the here and now while our present type of > economic > > > > > system is > > > > > > >still sweeping the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > (EW) > > > > > > >Much would seem to depend on the size, status and power > of > > > the > > > > > linguistic > > > > > > >group. There is no doubt in my mind that Quebec will > > > maintain > > > > > French and > > > > > > >do its governing and business in French in the > foreseeable > > > > > future. The > > > > > people > > > > > > >it will deal with in Ottawa will have to be able to use > > > French. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will > die > > > in > > > > > the end > > > > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the > developed > > > world. > > > > > When is > > > > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy > have > > > > > given up > > > > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English > word > > > > > imports. > > > > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, > Dutch > > > and > > > > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because > that's > > > the > > > > > language > > > > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class > > > Englishmen > > > > > could > > > > > put > > > > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language. > > > Once > > > > > upon a time > > > > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their > own > > > > > languages > > > > > fairly > > > > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never > speak > > > the > > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I think that English is a strong candidate as a > > > world > > > > > language, I > > > > > > wouldn't bet on it. Chinese is a much stronger candidate > in > > > the > > > > > longer > > > > > > term. It is basically easier to learn than most others. > It > > > has > > > > > lost all > > > > > the > > > > > > appendages that other languages still have -- > conjugations, > > > > > declensions, > > > > > > irregular verbs, subjunctives, ablatives, and so on -- > > > nightmares > > > > > that > > > > > > plagues learners of most other languages. Chinese has > also > > > lost > > > > > > inflections, cases, persons, genders, degrees, tenses, > > > voices, > > > > > moods, > > > > > > affixes, infinitives, participles, gerunds and articles. > It > > > lost > > > > > all these > > > > > > in the course of several thousand years of a largely > unified > > > > > culture and > > > > > > literature. There are no words of more than one syllable > and > > > > > every word > > > > > > has only one form. It proceeds by means of subject and > > > predicate > > > > > -- that's > > > > > > all -- and explicates by means of metaphors. Thousands of > > > them. > > > > > Tens of > > > > > > thousands of them. More poetry has been written in > Chinese > > > than in > > > > > any > > > > > > other language. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese is just about the most finely chiselled language > in > > > the > > > > > world -- > > > > > > the most fully developed. And when China gets to the > > > forefront > > > > > in > > > > > science, > > > > > > technology and commerce I think it will probably whop the > > > confused > > > > > and > > > > > > convoluted language that we call English (much as I love > it). > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > > > > > > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! 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