Treasure Beach must have been painful! Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Chinese as the world language? was: Re: [Futurework] Languages (fwd) > Ed, > > You wrote: > > However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and perhaps > Quebecois > use may also be based on the fact that they don't want you, as an > outsider, > to know what they are saying. > > Good point but more true for the highly educated than for the minimally > educated. > > Mandeville is very pretty. The problem with St. Elizabeth is the drug > trade. Treasure Beach is not that bad off, I believe: > > http://www.treasurebeach.net/ > > This is where we stayed during the field courses. > > Bill > > > On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:47:46 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Hi again Bill, > > > > I wanted to say more in my last email, but got called down to > > breakfast. > > The closest I got to St. Elizabeth was Mandeville, a beautiful > > little city > > in the uplands. Places I regret not having got to are the Cockpit > > Country > > and the Blue Mountains where escaped slaves, Maroons, established > > their > > communities, held off the British and finally negotiated peace > > treaties with > > them. My map of Jamaica shows me that the Cockpit Country is just > > to the > > north of St. Elizabeth Parish. However, it may not be a good place > > to go. > > My map tells me that the southwest corner of the Cockpit Country is > > known as > > "Me no sen you no come". Interesting name! > > > > On the matter of Patois, I've had similar experiences to your in > > Quebec. At > > one time, I was pretty good at French and could understand what > > people were > > saying to me, but there were cases in which I couldn't understand > > what they > > were saying to each other. What Quebecois use in the villages and > > on the > > streets may, as Ray suggests, be based on a more ancient form of > > French. > > However, the dialects that Cockneys, rural Jamaicans and perhaps > > Quebecois > > use may also be based on the fact that they don't want you, as an > > outsider, > > to know what they are saying. > > > > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William B Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Chinese as the world language? was: Re: > > [Futurework] Languages (fwd) > > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > I have spent a lot of time in St. Elizabeth Parish in Jamaica and > > have > > > become accustomed to speaking with rural Jamaicans but when two > > rural > > > Jamaicans shift completely into Patawa [Patois], although it is > > English I > > > am hard pressed to follow. This is similar to a time when I was > > ordering > > > tickets at a counter in London. The guy who spoke perfect English > > [not > > > American], picked up the phone and switched into Cockney and I > > didn't get > > > anything. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:38:51 -0400 "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > writes: > > > > Keith: > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will die > > in > > > > the end > > > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the developed > > world. > > > > When is > > > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy have > > > > given up > > > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English word > > > > imports. > > > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Dutch > > and > > > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because that's > > the > > > > language > > > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class > > Englishmen > > > > could > > > > put > > > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language. > > Once > > > > upon a time > > > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their own > > > > languages > > > > fairly > > > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never speak > > the > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > One has to appreciate that there is a difference between street > > > > French and > > > > the French spoken by the educated. My understanding is that > > the > > > > latter > > > > speak French, as in France, with perhaps some minor differences. > > My > > > > neice's > > > > daughter, who attends the French language University of > > Montreal, is > > > > off to > > > > the Sorbonne next year. She's already done some of her studies > > in > > > > France > > > > and has encountered no problems. > > > > > > > > It's interesting how languages evolve. When I was in Jamaica a > > few > > > > years > > > > ago, I had to go way back into the hill country to talk to some > > > > elderly > > > > people who had lived there all their lives. Though they spoke > > > > English, I > > > > could barely understand them. Another generation or so of > > > > isolation, and I > > > > might not be able to. > > > > > > > > Ed Weick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:39 22/08/2003 -0400, Ed Weick wrote: > > > > > >(KH) > > > > > >But surely, Prof Daniel Abrams' thesis is *not* valid. He is > > > > trying to > > > > > >maintain that minority languages can be protected. I > > originally > > > > wrote > > > > > >that this is not possible. PW, EW and I have each been > > saying > > > > that once a > > > > > >new way of life becomes communicable, tradable and > > geographically > > > > > >possible, then minority languages disappear. Prof Abrams > > would do > > > > better > > > > > >to spend his time and research money in recording as many > > > > minority > > > > > >languages as possible for future study and analysis, than > > trying > > > > to save > > > > > >them in the here and now while our present type of economic > > > > system is > > > > > >still sweeping the world. > > > > > > > > > > (EW) > > > > > >Much would seem to depend on the size, status and power of > > the > > > > linguistic > > > > > >group. There is no doubt in my mind that Quebec will > > maintain > > > > French and > > > > > >do its governing and business in French in the foreseeable > > > > future. The > > > > people > > > > > >it will deal with in Ottawa will have to be able to use > > French. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you must be right. However, Quebecian French will die > > in > > > > the end > > > > > if Quebec wants to stay in the mainstream of the developed > > world. > > > > When is > > > > > another matter. It's interesting that the French Academy have > > > > given up > > > > > their long-time attempts to exclude American and English word > > > > imports. > > > > > Almost all middle class Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Dutch > > and > > > > > what-have-you can speak fairly fluent English because that's > > the > > > > language > > > > > of modern commerce and science. Almost no middle class > > Englishmen > > > > could > > > > put > > > > > more than a sentence or two together in another language. > > Once > > > > upon a time > > > > > I used to be able to read Simenon and Pushkin in their own > > > > languages > > > > fairly > > > > > comfortably -- and enjoyably, too -- but I could never speak > > the > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > > > Although I think that English is a strong candidate as a > > world > > > > language, I > > > > > wouldn't bet on it. Chinese is a much stronger candidate in > > the > > > > longer > > > > > term. It is basically easier to learn than most others. It > > has > > > > lost all > > > > the > > > > > appendages that other languages still have -- conjugations, > > > > declensions, > > > > > irregular verbs, subjunctives, ablatives, and so on -- > > nightmares > > > > that > > > > > plagues learners of most other languages. Chinese has also > > lost > > > > > inflections, cases, persons, genders, degrees, tenses, > > voices, > > > > moods, > > > > > affixes, infinitives, participles, gerunds and articles. It > > lost > > > > all these > > > > > in the course of several thousand years of a largely unified > > > > culture and > > > > > literature. There are no words of more than one syllable and > > > > every word > > > > > has only one form. It proceeds by means of subject and > > predicate > > > > -- that's > > > > > all -- and explicates by means of metaphors. Thousands of > > them. > > > > Tens of > > > > > thousands of them. More poetry has been written in Chinese > > than in > > > > any > > > > > other language. > > > > > > > > > > Chinese is just about the most finely chiselled language in > > the > > > > world -- > > > > > the most fully developed. And when China gets to the > > forefront > > > > in > > > > science, > > > > > technology and commerce I think it will probably whop the > > confused > > > > and > > > > > convoluted language that we call English (much as I love it). > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > > > > > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
