Well, Ed, I think we will continue to disagree on this one. The killing in Najaf was CAUSED by our presence there. Our presence in Iraq is polarizing the Iraqis (though few to "our" side. The target of the Najaf attack was the senior cleric who joined the US-created Iraq council.
You use metaphors, like 'see it through' that sound positive but gloss over the real dynamics. In Vietnam, it was 'a light at the end of the tunnel', and many other such false but comforting pieties. Have you given real thought to just what it means to 'see it through', and whether it is at all possible, and how much it will cost us in terms of money, lives (US and Iraqi), international credibility, domestic politics, etc? How many US and Vietnamese lives were lost in Vietnam, and how many maimed? Do you know what the impact of Vietnam was on the US economy and domestic programs? Is this kind of toll acceptable to you? We are talking about serious questions here, and I appreciate your inputs, Ed. Cheers, Lawry > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ed Weick > Sent: Sat, August 30, 2003 5:44 PM > To: Keith Hudson > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: US not an Empire (was Re: [Futurework] Will Bush become a > Shia Moslem? Glass half-full or glass half empty? > > > > Niall Ferguson is, in my opinion, a brilliant historian and a > Prof at both > > Oxord and somewhere in America. I have three of his books on my shelves. > He > > also produced a brilliant BBC series recently on the British Empire. > > However, I think he's dead wrong about America being an > Imperial Power. In > > the Middle East, America is just trying to look after itself and its > future > > oil supplies. However, this is a far stronger motivation than any amount > of > > empire building and can lead to far greater follies. > > > > KSH > > Keith, I think the whole nature of empire has changed or, perhaps better, > progressed since the 19th Century. It's become far more than bringing in > the gunships, marching in the troops, making deals with the local > rajah, and > keeping down the wogs until they see things our way. It's a more subtle > process involving investments and capital flows and, perhaps most > importantly, demonstrations of the superiority of our way of life. Often, > the advance guard is Mickey Mouse, MacDonald's or Baskin and > Robins. When I > was in Moscow in the mid-1990s, MacDonald's was not only a very popular > place to eat, it was an island of peace and even sanity in the midst of > chaos. It was one of the few places in Moscow that you got what you paid > for. And if you didn't want to go to MacDonald's, you could take your > rubles to the American Grill. > > I recognize that, in Iraq, the Americans behaved like imperialists of old, > but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are imperialists of old. Yes, > oil is important. So is maintaining a stable American presence in the > Middle East and, if you can't do that in Saudi Arabia, you have to find > another place. But I do agree with Andrew Bacevich that there is a higher > moral purpose behind what the Americans are doing. They genuinely believe > that, in American capitalism and democracy, they have found the > ideal way of > life and they want the whole world to know it and will promote it in > whatever way they can. > > In Iraq, the Bushies have made a terrible mistake, taking imperialism back > to the 19th or even 18th Century, but as I argued to Lawry, they simply > can't get out of this one. They have to see it through! They are on the > ground, and unless they stay there, there will be complete, murderous > chaos - witness the bombing in Najaf. While I like to take the attitude > that Iraq is an American mess and their problem, I recognize that they may > need help in sitting on it till they can clean it up and stabilize it, and > that other western nations, including Canada, may have to pitch in. > > But if the mistake is to be rectified, it can't be by way of an American > withdrawal. It can only be by the US seeing it through, putting its money > where its mouth is, bringing the various Shia, Sunni and other elements > together and creating a genuine working democracy. Anything else > will drag > on and on and on in the history of the 21st and 22nd Centuries (etc.) as > bombings and retribution bombings. > > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 4:28 PM > Subject: US not an Empire (was Re: [Futurework] Will Bush become a Shia > Moslem? Glass half-full or glass half empty? > > > > Ed, > > > > At 16:11 30/08/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >Lawry, I don't think that the US has the luxury of admitting > that it made > a > > >mistake. Whether it did so or not, it would remain in the very > > >uncomfortable position of being the prime terrorist target. We mustn't > > >forget that Sept. 11, 2001 happened before the US wars on > Afghanistan and > > >Iraq. A great many people were already very angry at the US > before those > > >wars and are far angrier now. What the US has to do is sit on both > > >countries until they are pacified and fixed up, and especially > Iraq. It > has > > >to demonstrate that it meant and business and continues to mean it. It > may > > >take a long time and it may cost a lot of money, but that is > what it has > to > > >do. No matter what spin it puts on things, It can't just walk > out saying > > >"Ooops, sorry, we didn't mean that". > > > > > >Niall Ferguson is a British historian who has recently published a book > > >called "Empire". I haven't read the book, but I saw him interviewed on > TV. > > >His main argument there was that the US is now an empire much like > Britain > > >was in the 19th Century. The difference is that Britain > behaved like an > > >empire and stayed in places like India long enough to bring about a > genuine > > >transition toward a more democratic and egalatarian system. He doubted > that > > >the US has the staying power to do so. > > > > Niall Ferguson is, in my opinion, a brilliant historian and a > Prof at both > > Oxord and somewhere in America. I have three of his books on my shelves. > He > > also produced a brilliant BBC series recently on the British Empire. > > However, I think he's dead wrong about America being an > Imperial Power. In > > the Middle East, America is just trying to look after itself and its > future > > oil supplies. However, this is a far stronger motivation than any amount > of > > empire building and can lead to far greater follies. > > > > KSH > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
