Thanks, Keith. Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: Data quoted (was Re: [Futurework] Immigration into the United States ( wasRE: This sceptred compost heap) > At 13:48 18/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >Keith, I am not arguing with you, but anything like the following always > >has me wondering about sources, the nature and suitability of the tests > >that were administered (Stanford-Binet?), sample size, etc. I don't > >expect things on this list to be fully documented, but some indication of > >where the figures came from and how carefully they were derived would be > >helpful. > > > >Ed > > Ed, > > All the IQ figures I quoted were from "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" by > Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen (Praeger 2002), in turn quoted from the > usual peer-reviewed journals. Most of the scores used for the developed > countries were comprised, on average, of about four or five studies, each > involving large numbers of testees (though the scores of some countries > were interpolated from immediately adjoining countries). Whenever possible, > all the different IQ tests were correlated with one another and also with > Wechsler tests (non-culture-based tests) and, whever possible, with other > educational attainment tests. Richard Lynn is a recently retired Prof from > Ulster University and Tatu Vanhanen is a Finnish scholar. Their work has > been presented at the XVIII IPSA World Congress in Quebec 2000, at the 16th > European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies at Edinburgh 2000, and at > the Structural Change and Economic Development in South Asia Conference > 2000. If you consider that IQ tests mean something and do, in fact, relate > to basic mental ability in several important faculties, then I think you > can take it that the results I quoted are pretty accurate. > > Their case is that economic success is closely connected with the mean IQ > of the population concerned. I don't buy this completely myself because I > now think that culture is an important influence and the whole thing is a > slightly more subtle affair than mere mental pyrotechnics at the time of > testing. However the growing research into the frontal lobes suggests quite > strongly to me that what can be called "rear cortex IQ" can be maximised in > a culture which has respect for scholarship (that is, full opportunity for > frontal lobe development in early adulthood) and that this will almost > inevitably lead to economic success as a byproduct. > > Keith > > > > Hi Lawry, > > > > > > At 13:12 17/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Fascinating, Keith. How do you see, in terms of complexity and systems > > > >capacity, the effects of broad immigration into the United States? > > > > > > > >Cheers, > > > >Lawry > > > > > > Nice of you to say the above, but it may be that you're not going to like > > > my reply. In view of the vitriol I received once before, I resolved never > > > to mention the subject again directly on FW. But now you've asked me, I > > > will. I'm going to talk of IQ. Bear in mind, however, that I am much in > > > agreement with those who criticise IQ tests as being highly selective and > > > artificial. That's as may be, but also bear in mind that they correlate > > > highly with success in the same modern western civilisation which produced > > > those IQ tests. They may be self-referential but they bear upon the > > sort of > > > civilisation that, seemingly everybody else in the world wishes to aspire > > > to. If anyone wants to criticise IQ tests then they'd better also > > criticise > > > western society -- and ruthlessly, too -- and they'd better supply an > > > alternative -- and a workable alternative, too. > > > > > > Secondly, bear in mind that nothing has received quite as much flak as IQ > > > testing. But, by and large, it has stood up to it. It is, without any > > doubt > > > at all, mostly (70%) to do with the genes that are involved in the > > > development of the individual brain architecture and only 30% with > > > environment. Thirdly, traditional IQ tests correlate well with Wechsler > > > tests which are as culture-free as tests can be. Fourthly, traditional IQ > > > tests correlate well with mental reaction times from the simplest possible > > > procedures which any person -- even from the depths of the Papuan jungle > > > could take with ease. > > > > > > America had a tremendous amount going for it by the 1870s or so -- a > > > sufficient technology infrastructure mainly acquired from England and > > > Europe, wide open spaces, lots of resources, a temperate climate with > > > decent soils, long coast lines for trading opportunities, etc. It could do > > > nothing else but do well. With hardly any effort it couldn't fail to be a > > > major power in the world. It needed more people and it opened its doors to > > > the poor and oppressed of Europe (so long as they didn't carry TB -- those > > > who had it were sent back immediately on the same ship that brought them). > > > By accident America cropped into the most intelligent people in Europe, > > the > > > Jews, who had had enough of constant persecution and pogroms for > > centuries. > > > Almost more than any other people in the world, and probably equalled only > > > by the Chinese, they have respected scholarship. The one thing that any > > > Jewish parents wanted more than anything else was for their daughter to > > > marry the best Torah scholar in their neighbourhood. He might not be any > > > use for the family business but he'd likely produce a bunch of bright > > > grandchildren who might be. Those immigrants produced as hard a working > > and > > > as intelligent a work force as any that could be imagined for a young > > > nation. It was their children, born in America that did more for the work > > > ethic and success of America, particularly in New York and the big cities, > > > up to about the 1930s as any nation could have received. Furthermore, they > > > were then followed by a smaller but even more intelligent consignment of > > > Jewish scientists, philosophers, financiers and artists -- many of them > > > geniuses -- who were then being perscuted by the Nazi regime in Germany > > and > > > other to-be occupied countries in Europe. I needn't mention any of > > these -- > > > they are household names. > > > > > > So, to the mean IQ of 100 of American whites at around 1880 (that is, much > > > the same as the average European) a crop of a couple of million or so Jews > > > of probably a mean IQ of 106 or slightly more (I'm guessing) followed by a > > > couple of hundred thousand or so of IQ 130+ (I'm guessing) and we have the > > > makings of a Jewish population in America of about 6 million with a > > > reliably tested mean IQ of 110 today (and some tests suggest an IQ higher > > > than this). (This is a shade higher than the Chinese diaspora of 50 > > million > > > in south-east Asia with mean IQs of about 105.) Now an average IQ of 110 > > > compared the white American average of 100 doesn't sound terribly > > > significant, but it certainly is when you look at the upper tail of the > > > distribution because there you will find twice or three times the > > number of > > > people at the 130+ level which is where *significant* creativity starts. > > > > > > So look at what happens at the highest institutions of learning (and here > > > we can throw in some Asian-Americans, too). At Harvard in the late 1990s, > > > 20% of the undergraduates were Asians (which comprise about 2% of the > > > population), and about 30% of the undergraduates were Jewish Americans > > > (which also comprises about 2% of the whole population). The other half of > > > the intake were made up from the remaining 94% of Americans. > > > > > > Jewish Americans predominate at the highest levels in all American > > > institutions where mental ability counts -- academe, art and > > entertainment, > > > media, civil service, politicians, businesspeople. There's no need to be a > > > conspiracist or to ascribe bad motives to most of them (they have their > > bad > > > apples as all ethnic groups do) to say that that's where they almost > > > automatically end up by sheer brilliance and respect for scholarship. > > > (Also, just to mention Asians again, Asian-born and Asian-Americans write > > > 70% of the papers in the top physics and engineering journals. Jews > > tend to > > > be verbally dominant [left-brain], while Asians tend to be spatially > > > dominant [right-brain].) > > > > > > I ascribe the success of American business and science in the second half > > > of the 20th century as very importantly due to the immigration of European > > > Jews into America. > > > > > > The mean IQs of Black Americans and Hispanics are 85 and 92 respectively, > > > and the mean IQ of Americans as whole (all colours) is 98. Almost > > > certainly, however, if the immigration of Hispanics continues apace then > > > the mean IQ will decline from 98 -- according to the rate of immigration. > > > And that's where I must leave it for lack of further information. I don't > > > know what the differential birth rates are between American blacks and > > > Whites, nor the immigration figures or birth rates for Hispanics. (I'm > > not > > > American and I'm not terribly knowledgeable about IQ to be especially > > > motivated to research further, though I'd obviously be interested to know > > > the data.) > > > > > > In conclusion, I'll mention one more point which I think are important. I > > > am beginning to think that traditional IQ -- that is the measurement of > > > mental skills and, importantly, rapidity of mental reflexes is not in > > > itself overwhemingly important. As mentioned to Ed, there is some evidence > > > now that frontal lobe development takes place over a much longer period > > > than childhood and the frontal cortex is not so much concerned with > > > specific skills but with the timely application of skills -- patience, > > > persistence, creativity, emotional control . These, I suggest, are even > > > more important than IQ ability alone. This also fits in with what some > > > economists are now saying. They are now ascribing more importance to the > > > contribution of culture upon the economic success of an ethnic group or > > > nation. And this is under more direct political control than "raw-IQ" ever > > > was. If there is a real respect for scholarship within a culture then > > it is > > > more likely that the frontal lobes will develop more satisfactorily > > than in > > > one without discipline or application of scholarship. In time, this will, > > > of course feedback positively to the selection of high levels of the > > basic > > > IQ of the rear cortex -- as was obviously the case of the Jews of central > > > Europe from about 1400 onwards who found partners for their children with > > > great care (as many orthodox Jews do know, of course). Modern Jews are > > also > > > the first into eugenics by a persistent campaign of steadily eliminating > > > the dreadful Tay-Sachs Disease from their gene pool. > > > > > > I'm afraid I haven't touched upon systems complexity in America, but you > > > can draw your own conclusions, I think. > > > > > > Keith > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] oo.ca > > > > > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Keith Hudson > > > >Sent: Wed, September 17, 2003 12:42 PM > > > >To: Ed Weick > > > >Cc: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Subject: This sceptred compost heap (was Re: [Futurework] Education > > > > > > > >Ed, > > > >Thanks for this. I've read three different summaries of this same OECD > > > >report this morning! > > > >I've just come back from a dogwalk and still dwelling on what I wrote > > > >after sending you my previous posting. What was occurring to me is that > > > >the reason for a number of the arguments we have is that our societies > > are > > > >much more different than we might imagine -- or at least I might imagine > > > >anyway. Time and again, I describe things going on here and I get the > > > >impression from some of your slightly nonchalant responses sometimes that > > > >you might be thinking that I am exaggerating. I also get the impression > > > >that you live in a much more laid back -- indeed much happier and less > > > >stressed -- society than here. Hitherto, I've regarded the difference > > as a > > > >personality one. However, during the dogwalk -- and I hope you don't > > think > > > >I'm being patronising here -- I think our society is more complex than > > > >yours because we have so many layers of history. Please don't think I'm > > > >trying to show off -- but consider. We were building quite complex stone > > > >buildings at the tip of Scotland and in the south of England before the > > > >pyramids were built. By 1,000BC we had probably the most complex bronze > > > >technology in the world (apart from China's), using tin from Cornwall and > > > >copper from north Wales, with, correspondingly, a very advanced mining > > > >technology (scores of tin mines stretching for miles under the sea bed in > > > >Cornwall and over 50 miles of recently discovered tunnels in north Wales > > > >from that date -- made with bone and stone tools), and with significant > > > >manufacturing areas somewhere in between (not yet discovered) to actually > > > >make the bronzes (of different blends for different purposes) and then > > > >trading the products over thousands of miles from the Baltic through to > > > >the Mediterranean. Then we've been invaded by the Romans, and the Saxons, > > > >and the Vikings and Danes, and the Normans with their advanced feudal > > > >system followed by the landowning classes. We were at the back-end of the > > > >Mediterranean Renaissance but one of the first into long-distance trading > > > >with Asia and big trading companies, the first into the Western > > Scientific > > > >Enlightenment and then the Industrial Revolution, and the first into the > > > >computer revolution. We are the third/fourth largest exporting country in > > > >the world -- not of products (we're mined out of almost everything we > > ever > > > >had by way of resources), but of a variety of services. In short, we > > > >probably have the most mature job and social structure of anywhere in the > > > >world. We live by our wits. We may not have the sheer mass, momentum or > > > >technological products that the Americans have got but I think we lead > > the > > > >world in the acquisition of problems, strains and stresses from all this > > > >historical/technological development. We're a well-rotted compost heap, > > > >showing extremes of anything that can be discussed in terms of job > > > >structure and society. In addition, we're also geographically small > > enough > > > >to have started the most comprehensive welfare, educational, social > > > >services, health and transport services in the world and now we're the > > > >furthest advanced in showing that they're breaking down -- that the > > > >welfare society is absolutely cram full of problems and we're showing > > them > > > >all in abundance, so much so that even a Labour government is trying to > > > >privatise as much as it can get away with (albeit in more cunning ways > > > >that Thatcher did). The only other country which has had such a complex > > > >history as ours, running through the whole gamut of every type of > > economic > > > >and technological development is China. I cannot think of any other with > > > >such a varied experience and with so many historical residues which are > > > >still fermenting away. > > > > > > > >I'm very probably over-egging the pudding (once again without wishing to > > > >be patronising in any way at all) but, in comparison, Canada's (and > > > >America's) social, economic, historical, cultural problems are somewhat > > > >simpler than ours. I'm not suggesting in any way that you are personally > > > >naive, but I think that your problems can be stated (and solved) in much > > > >more simplistic terms than could be done here. However, I believe that > > > >many of the trends and problems here in England that I am writing about > > > >will come to you, too, in due course -- because we are much further on in > > > >what I believe to be the decline of the industrial revolution. > > > >Keith > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > > > <<http://www.evolutionary-economics.org>www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
