Hi Thomas, (List). Thank you for the quick reply, it must be morning there ?
As far as "pre-treatment" I could type you some options, but rather than that, (missing the top half of my middle finger on the left hand) so typing is slow for me, can I show you some (off the list< lurkers). Giving the "farm" to one person is one thing, giving it to all that never post here, is something else. Greg P.S. I'll contact you in a day or two. On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Koch <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Greg **** > > ** ** > > ”Commercial product” has certainly different definitions depending of what > you are doing. **** > > ** ** > > But for renewables most of my customers are not looking for an activity – > like gasifier maintenance – but they are certainly willing to accept some > extra cost and maintenance compared to a gas boiler. **** > > ** ** > > In my definition the product is commercial when you can start to get > interest from the non religious customers eg. when you can start a dialog > with a bank concerning financing of the project – without involving your > house or what ever the bank will ask for. **** > > ** ** > > My analysis of the market, for the next 10-20 years, for small and medium > scale – below 50 MW - gasifiers for biomass is that new innovation – or a > few more nuclear catastrophes like in Japan - is needed before the > technology has a chance to become commercial. **** > > ** ** > > The only biomass gasification technology that might be commercial in the > near future is cofiring of biomass in large entrained flow gasifier – if > the pretreatment issues can be solved at reasonable cost and energy > consumption. **** > > ** ** > > Waste gasification could also have a chance – but again – the success > depends on how the pretreatment issues are solved. **** > > ** ** > > What is an elegant pretreatment solution? – difficult to say – but we will > know it when it is there. **** > > ** ** > > Thomas **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *Fra:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *På vegne af *Greg Manning > *Sendt:* 29. juni 2012 05:25 > > *Til:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > *Emne:* Re: [Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and > commercial roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers**** > > ** ** > > Thomas (and list).**** > > ** ** > > What is you definition of a "Commercial Product" ?**** > > ** ** > > to my knowledge, ALL gasification systems have "consumables", if a > gasifier runs for 600 and then needs a consumable > would this fit the bill > ? or does it need to run 4000 hours before replacement ??**** > > ** ** > > IMO a timed "shut-down" (much like big business does, Koch Fertilizer for > example does one every 200 some odd days, or thereabouts). Is > considered commercial.**** > > ** ** > > Or does it need to be like a gas furnace, that runs for 20 some odd years > every winter, with only a filter change (most, don't even get that).**** > > ** ** > > I'm asking, simply because I would like your opinion.**** > > ** ** > > Greg**** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Thomas Koch <[email protected]> wrote:**** > > Tom > > From my experiences I have learned that many unexpected problems caused by > high temperature and reducing atmosphere can come after 500 - 2000 - 8000 > hours. > I would be surprised if no new unexpected problems would show up after > 15000 - 30000 hours operation. > > I can only agree that we should applaud any body that can make a gasifier > that can operate for 600 hours - but we should remember that we are far > from commercial products at this stage > > Best regards > > Thomas Koch > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] På vegne af Tom Miles > Sendt: 29. juni 2012 02:59**** > > Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'**** > > Emne: Re: [Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and commercial > roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers**** > > > David, > > Generally if a piece of equipment can get through commercial production for > 600 hours you will have discovered most of the unanticipated problems. It > usually takes a couple of months of round the clock production to get to > that point. Beyond that it takes another couple of thousand hours to verify > operation and increase reliability. When you're hitting over 90% production > every 24 hour day then it should get boring. With industrial biomass > systems fuel quality, fuel sizing, drying, and feeding account for about > 95% of the unintended stoppages/outages/downtime. If you are ready for > commercial production then you have already solved the downstream problems > like figuring out how to make good quality gas, gas cleaning and cooling, > and gas use, whether it is a boiler or engine. > > The variety of biomass feedstocks in type, form size and availability is > usually a challenge. A device is often developed on fuels with certain > specifications. When things fail vendors complain that the fuel was > non-spec. It happens all the time but it doesn't really help anybody. As a > supplier you have to be prepared to supply or specify the fuel system along > with the reactor. > > A major challenge for development companies has less to do with the > technology and more to do with how you run a business. Some are business > failures more than technology failures. People just have different talents > for running startup businesses. Technology developers chronically waste a > lot of money up front, delay in building and testing prototypes, have slow > turnarounds on improvements, use equipment that won't stand up to the > abrasiveness of biomass, etc. It doesn't take long before you run out of > money. As in other businesses the good strategy is probably to develop a > good product and then sell it to a company in a similar business, like a > boiler company, that can take advantage of manufacturing capabilities that > are used to produce other products. > > Sometimes the gasifier is just a "money magnet," a piece of pretty steel > to attract investors. It is assumed that you can get it to work was you > burn through the start-up funding. Sometimes it seems like we are very > inefficient at using money invested in gasification but we may be no > different than other industries. > > A common mistake is to try to export a gasification products too soon. In > other equipment we say that you need to develop a domestic market before > you try to export it. In the 1970s we saw a lot of gasifiers start out in > universities then the prototypes were exported to developing companies > before they were fully developed. Usually they rusted there unless the > engineer or scientist who developed them showed up. Then they are very > expensive to try to improve or maintain. > > We have many companies offering gasifiers have built one prototype and > claim performance well beyond their demonstrated capabilities. It's fine > for the prototypes and the first several commercial units to fail as along > as the supplier stays with it and makes things work. We tend to criticize > prototypes or initial installations that fail. We should applaud the > success of those who have recovered from the failure by identifying the > problem an > designing around it in time to get back into production. We all have > failures as we develop new systems. Sometimes developers can't continue > development because the client has failed financially. Usually the grant > money runs out before you get through commissioning. > > Those are just some of the many hazards in developing gasification systems. > Add all that to a limited and fickle market and it's actually a pretty > high risk activity. As they say, to make a small fortune in gasification > you need to start with a large fortune. > > Tom > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David > Coote > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and commercial > roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers > > Thanks, Tom. > > A very useful study would be identifying at good resolution the reasons > why small-scale CHP gasifiers fail technically and/or struggle commercially. > Once that's clearly established suitable focus can be brought to bear on > what is going wrong between pilot/demonstration and commercial phases with > a view to fixing the issues. I think the same could apply to 2nd generation > biofuels. > > Regards > > David > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > > Fra: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] P? vegne af Tom > > Miles > > Sendt: 28. juni 2012 03:14 > > Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' > > Emne: Re: [Gasification] Which of the gasifiers Tom listed are meeting > > Knoef's commercial criteria > > > > David, > > > > It looks like you have the makings of a survey. :-/ > > > > Harrie's criteria are good and would be difficult for most suppliers > > to > meet. We want gasifiers to be as readily installed and operated as boilers. > > > > We should determine what needs to be done to get more suppliers over > > all > of these hurdles. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenerg > ylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenerg%0d%0aylists.org> > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/**** > > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > >
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