A few things... 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside of "everything happens on mailing lists." 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those communities. 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community since they are a huge source of potential committers. 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building. Gunnar On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@savoirtech.com> wrote: > and you got your answer…. what changes? > > Jeff > > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a > question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using > Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are > part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions > expressed by individuals. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gunnar > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org > <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org <mailto: > r...@apache.org>> wrote: > > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it > is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. > Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) > are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active > users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese. > > > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs > reside. ;-) Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose > country is the best. That does nobody any good and its straw man. > > > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as > I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my > statement. Read it again. That was certainly *not* my argument and my > argument was most *definitely* defensible. > > > > I never said English will bring in more users than China. I *did* say > that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to > use a more international language. Outside of China I will also say that > the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese. > > > > For the record, I am a messaging lover. I am a committer/PMC on > ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such > as RabbitMQ. I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are > in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software. Now based on your > tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care. That is fine. But there > are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me. *You* need to > define on who your want your audience to be. > > > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” > because our main language is an international one. But it’s not going to > change your situation or position. > > > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, > then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear. > What responses were you looking for? Were you looking that the rest of the > members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea? If > this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in > attempting to answer you. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org > <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org <mailto: > jgenen...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most > international language, not because its the most used in the world. Thus > it helps cross borders for communication. At the end of the day, I think > you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders > or not. Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)? I can tell you > that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into > problems or issues using Apache software. If the discussions are in > Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion > from outside of China. I think you really need to think about who you want > your users to be and how you want your product adopted. > > > > > > In addition, this is an incubated project. AFAICT, the champion > doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do. > This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project > when they are needed. It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any > problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue. In the > unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, > the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper > insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language. > > > > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a > language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that. But my .02 is > that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community > would be getting as many people and users involved as possible. If you > don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that > you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders. I think > that would be a shame. OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a > Chinese piece of software. I guess that is ok too… but I would be > interested in why. > > > > > > Just my usual .02. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk <mailto: > t...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk>>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking > about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but > obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others. > > > > > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it > never happened" didn't mention the language. > > > > > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would > non Chinese speaking people follow development? > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <r...@apache.org <mailto: > r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>> > <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: > > > > Adding members@ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org > <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>> > <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist > > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put > it > > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be > in > > > > > English? > > > > > > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as > English > > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented > software > > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency > when it > > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is > much lower > > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn > English > > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese. > > > > > > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also > exclude > > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number > of native > > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 > according > > > > > to Wikipedia. > > > > > > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other > countries, > > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > > > > Gunnar > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right. > > -- Thanks, Gunnar *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
