Hi Folks,
John asked a few important questions and I also thank him for moving the
trawler problem forward.
As to "nutrient question. I have found a correlation between 2 studies and
explored an idea for nutrient enhancement. Here is a copy of the post under
the thread "Lecture on Methane..." May 12.
"If you take a look at this paper
http://www.mumm-research.de/download_pdf/treude_et_al_aom_hr.pdf Pg 2
"The AOM consortium predominant at HR consists
of sulfate-reducing bacteria of the branch Desulfosarcina/Desulfococcus and
archaea of the ANME-2
group (Boetius et al. 2000b). The archaea are surrounded by the
sulfate-reducing bacteria and both
grow together in dense aggregates that comprise up
to 90% of the microbial biomass in hydrate-bearing
sediments. The current hypothesis on the functioning
of AOM assumes that archaea oxidize methane in a
process that is reverse to methanogenesis (Valentine
& Reeburgh 2000, and references therein). The role
of the sulfate-reducing bacteria in AOM-consortia is
the oxidation of a so far unknown intermediate by
simultaneous reduction of sulfate, thus maintaining
thermodynamic conditions allowing methane oxidation to proceed
exergonically."
Now take a look at this:
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-05-scientists-links-biology-cloud-formation.html
The "so far unknown intermediate" seems to have been found by the second
group. Thus, I believe sulfite enhancement might be used to both feed the
sulfate-reducing bacteria in the vent areas to enhance the biomass around
vents and thus methane oxidation. There may also be a synergistic link
between increasing this process and.... believe it on not.....cloud
nucleation.
This brings up the possibility of transplanting biotic colonies to less
well populated vents to kick start the natural process. Methane hydrates
are associated with local sulfate production in some vents. This may be a
clue as to how we might get new biotic masses growing....feed them sulfate
through dispersing blocks of compressed sulfate around vents.
Just a thought....Any comments, suggestions?" This nutrient enhancement can
be done by aircraft. I will not take that much per sq km.
Also, I believe the methane can be captured and used to cool the
surrounding water without extensive invasion of the area by industrial
processes. The broad sketch of the concept is the first post at "Lecture on
Methane".
One last thing. I think the ESAS has a mean depth of 150m....still not
much. I try to address enhanced oxidation through hydrosol assimilation in
todays post to Sam on the same thread.
Thanks,
Michael
On May 14, 2011 2:24am, John Nissen <j...@cloudworld.co.uk> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks Albert and thanks to Michael before you (about the trawling
danger).
Albert, the problem of the ESAS (East Siberian Arctic Shelf) is that
it's shallow - about 8 metres deep I believe - so the microbes in
the water do not have time to convert the methane rising from the
seabed. Any overturning of the water column makes things worse,
because it carries warmer water from the surface to the seabed, to
melt the permafrost. But certainly an adequate supply of nutrients
would help the microbes in the water. What about the microbes on
the seabed - in the "biotic" layer that Michael mentions?
Presumably they convert methane before it enters the water above the
biotic layer. Is there any way to stimulate their activity?
If venting were done deliberately, could there be a way of capturing
the methane, with or without the CO2?
Michael, I'm copying this to Professor Watson, representing DEFRA,
to alert about the trawling danger. There obviously needs to be
some effective international regulation to protect areas of the
sea-floor where there may be a biotic layer of methane-converting
microbes.
John
---
On 13/05/2011 18:50, Veli Albert Kallio wrote:
The methane tends to be devoured by microbes. However, methane
supply may exceed availability of other necessary nutrients such
as oxygen and trace elements that living organisms require. Thus
there is a saturation point where methane conversion to carbon
dioxide stops, after this the methane dissolves into water as
such.
As a result, it is very dangerous situation if a still deep water
pocket becomes heavily laden with carbon dioxide as this dissolves
in huge volumes (5 times the volume of water). The water column
becomes highly unstable if water overturns and the dissolved
carbon dioxide and methane starts runaway nucleation as the rising
bubbles pull water with them upwards. This leads to overturning of
water and suffocating discharges of carbon dioxide and methane as
well as risk of drowing where ocean turns into foam and becomes
unsupportive to boats. Over 2,000 people died and professor Michel
Halbwachs was commissioned to resolve this by a controlled venting
of gases.
The largest singel pan of highly dangerous carbon dioxide and
methane laden water is Lake Kivu. Besides melting permafrost
thawing methane clathrates, volcanoes can pump methane and carbon
dioxide into water making it unstable, which has been so far with
the case Professor Halbwachs team of engineers has been working to
resolve to prevent further fatalities. We will see these in
off-shore and on-shore water bodies that have presence of frozen
methane. Microbes will eat methane away in most cases, but when
supply of other nutritiens falls back methane accummulates
after microbial digestion to carbon dioxide phases out.
I hope this clarifies what happens to the methane and carbon
dioxide as arctic reservoirs start leaking it.
Yours sincerely,
Veli Albert Kallio
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 11:39:59 +0000
Subject: Re: [geo] Arctic Council meeting on Thursday - the truth
is out
From: voglerl...@gmail.com
To: j...@cloudworld.co.uk
CC: robert.wat...@defra.gsi.gov.uk; albert_kal...@hotmail.com;
crisis-fo...@jiscmail.ac.uk;
climatechangepolit...@yahoogroups.com; john.dav...@foe.co.uk;
gorm...@waitrose.com; kcalde...@stanford.edu;
Geoengineering@googlegroups.com; richard.bla...@bbc.co.uk;
sam.car...@gmail.com; g.monb...@zetnet.co.uk;
markly...@zetnet.co.uk; robert.wat...@uea.ac.uk
Hi Folks,
Your question "There could also be an effect of methane bubbling
through water on marine life. Anybody know?"
I don't know about health effects on marine life at an expert
level, but....probable little...if any. However, Please pay
attention to this........
http://www.afma.gov.au/resource-centre/teachers-and-students/about-fishing-methods-and-devices/trawl/demersal-trawl/
This is the type of commercial fishing gear you can expect going
into new arctic areas. The Demersal trawling gear drags along the
seabed and basically will wipe out and kill every thing in it's
path. If this happens in a hydrate field, critical damage to the
methane oxidizing biotic layer will happen. It was a trawler that
found the Cascade Hydrate field. The sea-floor biotic layer can
oxidize up to 90% of the methane. I don't think we need to loose
that type of protection.
Also, this type of fishing boat wiped out the north Atlantic cod
and is now making a big dent in the north pacific stock. They work
the continental shelves. So, don't underestimate what they can do
to a hydrate field. And, expect them to cheat if they are limited
to only mid water gear. It is very easy to switch gear with few
knowing about it. I have watched a number of shady practices in
that business. They need to be banned from any known or suspected
hydrate fields and probably the arctic as a whole. Fish-n-Chips
are not worth it.
Thanks
Michael
On May 12, 2011 11:30pm, John Nissen
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Professor Watson,
>
>
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9483790.stm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How absurd. Now we have it confirmed that the Arctic Council
is
> there, not to pretect the Arctic, but to carve up the
resources.
> And now we know that the people involved ARE rubbing their
hands
> with glee as the sea ice retreats, seemingly oblivious of the
> tremendous horrors that await them (and the rest of humanity)
as
> Arctic ice melts away and methane, trapped by permafrost, is
> discharged in ever increasing quantities to exacerbate global
> warming. There are signs that this process is already
underway
> [1]. As I said to BBC correspondent, Richard Black, at the
EGU
> conference in April, we only need 10% of potential methane to
be
> discharged over 20 years, and the rate of global warming
would be
> multiplied by about 40 times [2]. This is easily enough to
cause
> abrupt and catastrophic climate change [3].
>
>
>
> Governments around the world, together with the whole
environment
> movement, should unite to fight this absurd situation, and
back a
> plan to stop the methane at all costs. This is an emergency.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8437703.stm
>
>
>
> [2] Sam Carana points out that I was erring on the low side
for
> this figure.
>
>
>
> [3] I am not the first to point out this danger from
methane.
> Research on the East Siberian Arctic Shelf (ESAS) has exposed
the
> dire situation.
>
>
>
> If just one percent of ESAS methane escapes its crystal
prison,
> Semiletov suggested at a geophysical conference in 2008, it
might
> push
> total methane to 6 parts per million. Some researchers
consider
> this is
> a tipping point towards 'runaway climate change.' If that
term
> doesn't
> summon up an image, you can take NASA scientist James
Hansen's
> suggestion of an “ice-free state” where the Greenland and
> Antarctic ice
> sheets melt entirely, raising global sea level by over 200
feet.
>
>
>
> See http://tyeebridge.com/?p=608
>
>
>
> ---
[snip]
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