Thank you for that education -- I just surmised that since it was called the Communidade it was set up by them. Wonder if one of the 'tweaks' was to leave us women out!
Marianne On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:32 PM John Nazareth <jhr_nazar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > The Communidades were not set up by the Portuguese. > > These village communities were originally call the Gaunkari – they were > set up perhaps 1500 years ago. The are an indigenous society. > > The Portuguese made some minor changes and renamed them to Communidades. > > John > > > > *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth > *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2024 8:55 AM > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) > > > > I find it extremely paradoxical that women were included in the > inheritance of property by the Portuguese BUT the zonn issued by > Communidade ( also set up by the Portuguese) leaves women completely out! > > > > I guess something is better than nothing is what I tell myself, when > looking after the old homestead, for the family! > > > > Marianne > > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:59 AM John Nazareth <jhr_nazar...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Nevertheless, it is encouraging that the sale of land proceeds are being > passed to the gaunkars. > > But Marianne has a point that women are being left out. > > John > > > > *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2024 2:07 AM > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) > > > > Ok! Thats good to know as I heard in Pilerne, its in the region of 14- 17 > k per person. > > Our tenants are holding the panchayat posts now! > > > > Marianne > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:08 PM Frederick Noronha < > fredericknoron...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Pilerne is an exception. The *zonn *is coming from the sale of their > permanent land assets to the industrial estate atop the village hillock. In > comunidades I know of, the zonn is about Rs 100 per year, and that too, > only if you register a year in advance. Not worth the time and trouble. > What is the *zonn* in the other areas? > > An interesting study would be to see how comunidades got treated since the > 1960s, when they were stripped of their powers and income, especially > during the era of land reforms across India... That was also incidentally > when large landholders in parts of Goa joined politics and didn't lose most > of their assets. FN > > > > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 21:45, Marianne de Nazareth <mde.nazar...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > The system is alive and well in my village in Goa for decades. Infact the > males who register get a very handsome zonn. > > To clarify ---this is in MY family property and NOT my husbands. By > Portuguese law everyone gets a share including the spouses. > > I am happy to look after the family homestead, as my connections to it are > strong. > > I just felt the zonn was meant to help maintain the property which due to > my gender I am not eligible. > > > > Marianne > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 6:55 PM John Nazareth <jhr_nazar...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Well, first of all, the system is now practically defunct so there would > be nothing left to reform. > > I guess at the time it was formulate the intention was that the woman > would join the communidade of her husband and as such she had access to her > husband’s zonn. > > Frankly, I have found that Goan women were/are very strong and often save > their men from themselves. > > (For a personal example, when Uganda exploded in 1972 I was thinking of > joining the guerrillas in neighbouring Tanzania to fight Amin. I got > married to girlfriend Cynthia Fernandes who was outside the country at the > time. That was the end of my guerrilla thoughts.) > > I have always joked with my friends that Goan society was the only > “patriarchal” society run by the women. > > This is only half a joke; it is a reality. Goan women have run their homes. > > The only thing is that they would do in their husband’s village. > > > > But further to that – I have noticed in my research on clans that a > significant percentage of cases the family unit has moved to live in the > village of the mother (while getting the zonn from the husband’s village. > > > > This too confirms my belief that God is a great joker, but the whole world > is afraid to laugh. > > > > John > > P.S. In the old days the Goan inheritance rules were that the villager’s > family property was shared between the male children. I believe that it > changed so that women also had inheritance rights. I am not sure when it > changed – someone else would be better positioned to say more. > > > > *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2024 2:29 AM > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) > > > > What I feel sad about is that we daughters of the family -- who are the > ONLY ones looking after the family homes -- are not part of the Zonn. > > > > Isnt it time such patriarchy was changed to include us women inheritors? > > > > Dr Marianne Furtado de Nazareth > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 9:41 AM John Nazareth <jhr_nazar...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > The relationship between the gavnkars, zonnkars, munddkars, and other > players in the gavnkari have been written about for many years and I was > used to reading about them. > > But when Leroy Veloso first showed me his work in 2007 about using the > Matricula – which was primarily for registering people who were to receive > some fraction of the zonn – to identify clans I immediately recognized it > as a valuable bi-product. I don’t think that was its intention but it is > important. > > And its simplicity is elegant. I was surprised that more historians were > not doing it. > > > > Of course, there is deeper work that can proceed from it and the master of > such work is Bernardo De Sousa in his book “The Last Prabhu”. > > Someone needs to create a how-to paper to work with the mahajans to > identify the root surnames the way Bernardo has done. That is not simple. > > But I wanted to point out how simple it is to work with the matricula, say > from 1940, to unearth the clans of a village. > > That is important because now that the Gavnkari has been treated so > callously by the new institutions of governance those documents are in > danger. > > Everyone needs to work quickly to work with their communidade to create a > clan list. > > > > Once the matricula ledgers go to the Panjim Archives it is all over. > > I couldn’t find anyone there who knew what they were and how to get access > to them. They are lost in the ether. > > Finding books of baptisms, marriages and deaths are easy, but you can > forget about the matriculas. > > So work with what you can find in the village communidades today. > > I sat in the Nachinola communidade for just 2 hours and was able to create > a table. Nachinola was my late wife’s village. > > I couldn’t thank them enough for their kindness. They wouldn’t even accept > a donation for their institution. > > But what I have created has been highly prized by my Nachinola friends. > > > > I stand in awe of the traditional system of village governance that stood > for over 1000 years and that is now in its twilight years. > > > > John Nazareth > > > > *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf Of *wrdsilva > *Sent:* Sunday, April 7, 2024 12:15 AM > *To:* Goa-Research-Net <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) > > > > My fieldwork in Goa shows the Matricula etc. have merit, but the 'clan' > system is difficult to describe the way it is often done. Ganvponn, > Ganvkari, Zonn, Zonnkar, Munddkar, Mittgaudde etc.etc. makes the rural > system a little more complicated than it is recovered from 'communidades' > accounts, or vangodd systems. We need good fieldwork complimented by > documents, Portuguese and local (Konkani, Marathi) in order to get a better > grasp of the system operating and changing over external interventions in > Goa. > > William Robert Da Silva > > On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 1:34:30 PM UTC+5:30 Rowena wrote: > > Very exciting. I remember wanting to work on this decades ago. Glad > someone is 👍🏼 Regards, rowena > > On Thu, 4 Apr, 2024, 13:25 Frederick Noronha, <frederic...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > A paper by *John Nazareth* <jhr_na...@hotmail.com>, Canada-based > statistician and history enthusiast. Check it out below. He writes: > "These tables can be gleaned from the Matricula, while is the ledger > within the Communidade office on which they log the gaunkars who are > registering for their zonn." He says while his work covers only a few > villages, others could do so for more. "I got one of my friends to do the > necessary in Anjuna in just two days." > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-n...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53J0ZVMvJshaYnnvNNeceRcNt55AKEG%2B%3D9CyUo0m2cVBxQ%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53J0ZVMvJshaYnnvNNeceRcNt55AKEG%2B%3D9CyUo0m2cVBxQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/19cf537c-3cb9-4170-b53a-67501262ed34n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/19cf537c-3cb9-4170-b53a-67501262ed34n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470DDD7B560D4074E0729EFF002%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470DDD7B560D4074E0729EFF002%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > > -- > > > > Dr Marianne de Nazareth > > Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, > > Freelance Environmental Journalist > > Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater > > Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ > > http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeK0AkswyPG0F3T5P1yFvuUJg0KOAMyWcOfFTv-uMQ-rKg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeK0AkswyPG0F3T5P1yFvuUJg0KOAMyWcOfFTv-uMQ-rKg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470436A8A4DC24F64FBDF6FF072%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470436A8A4DC24F64FBDF6FF072%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > > -- > > > > Dr Marianne de Nazareth > > Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, > > Freelance Environmental Journalist > > Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater > > Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ > > http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKAMuuo9cAih9_5FOjVxxxom3MtgEgchd%3D_YmA1hksUfg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKAMuuo9cAih9_5FOjVxxxom3MtgEgchd%3D_YmA1hksUfg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53KnAPrPCSB20odRKfhKz4yrWbq0zNfQURjTAxMZeOOAyg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53KnAPrPCSB20odRKfhKz4yrWbq0zNfQURjTAxMZeOOAyg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > > -- > > > > Dr Marianne de Nazareth > > Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, > > Freelance Environmental Journalist > > Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater > > Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ > > http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKMmeBTjWw-V38aW5v_n_dGz6by_CCG8HGPAEyVmj4fDg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKMmeBTjWw-V38aW5v_n_dGz6by_CCG8HGPAEyVmj4fDg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147309A4B78411ECF031BBFFF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147309A4B78411ECF031BBFFF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > > -- > > > > Dr Marianne de Nazareth > > Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, > > Freelance Environmental Journalist > > Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater > > Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ > > http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeJtmFSEJ9Y%3DDi4UWaEnUszju1q2qhE1uaDHA79XfcqhiQ%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeJtmFSEJ9Y%3DDi4UWaEnUszju1q2qhE1uaDHA79XfcqhiQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147B00DB3D84256A42C8F04FF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147B00DB3D84256A42C8F04FF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Dr Marianne de Nazareth Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, Freelance Environmental Journalist Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHe%2B6zyCAG-htv1Fe8SZAgjLKni05n%3DiWf-%3DQe0qiWG5XPw%40mail.gmail.com.
